New information on how we actually DIE. It's not what everyone thought! | FerrariChat

New information on how we actually DIE. It's not what everyone thought!

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by REMIX, May 1, 2007.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. REMIX

    REMIX Two Time F1 World Champ

    Wow...serious implications here. Could we have been doing it backwards all this time? What does that mean?

    Discuss!!

    RMX

    -------

    Doctors Change the Way They Think About Death
    The new science of resuscitation is changing the way doctors think about heart attacks—and death itself.
    By Jerry Adler

    Newsweek

    May 7, 2007 issue - Consider someone who has just died of a heart attack. His organs are intact, he hasn't lost blood. All that's happened is his heart has stopped beating—the definition of "clinical death"—and his brain has shut down to conserve oxygen. But what has actually died?

    As recently as 1993, when Dr. Sherwin Nuland wrote the best seller "How We Die," the conventional answer was that it was his cells that had died. The patient couldn't be revived because the tissues of his brain and heart had suffered irreversible damage from lack of oxygen. This process was understood to begin after just four or five minutes. If the patient doesn't receive cardiopulmonary resuscitation within that time, and if his heart can't be restarted soon thereafter, he is unlikely to recover. That dogma went unquestioned until researchers actually looked at oxygen-starved heart cells under a microscope. What they saw amazed them, according to Dr. Lance Becker, an authority on emergency medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. "After one hour," he says, "we couldn't see evidence the cells had died. We thought we'd done something wrong." In fact, cells cut off from their blood supply died only hours later.

    But if the cells are still alive, why can't doctors revive someone who has been dead for an hour? Because once the cells have been without oxygen for more than five minutes, they die when their oxygen supply is resumed. It was that "astounding" discovery, Becker says, that led him to his post as the director of Penn's Center for Resuscitation Science, a newly created research institute operating on one of medicine's newest frontiers: treating the dead.

    Biologists are still grappling with the implications of this new view of cell death—not passive extinguishment, like a candle flickering out when you cover it with a glass, but an active biochemical event triggered by "reperfusion," the resumption of oxygen supply. The research takes them deep into the machinery of the cell, to the tiny membrane-enclosed structures known as mitochondria where cellular fuel is oxidized to provide energy. Mitochondria control the process known as apoptosis, the programmed death of abnormal cells that is the body's primary defense against cancer. "It looks to us," says Becker, "as if the cellular surveillance mechanism cannot tell the difference between a cancer cell and a cell being reperfused with oxygen. Something throws the switch that makes the cell die."

    With this realization came another: that standard emergency-room procedure has it exactly backward. When someone collapses on the street of cardiac arrest, if he's lucky he will receive immediate CPR, maintaining circulation until he can be revived in the hospital. But the rest will have gone 10 or 15 minutes or more without a heartbeat by the time they reach the emergency department. And then what happens? "We give them oxygen," Becker says. "We jolt the heart with the paddles, we pump in epinephrine to force it to beat, so it's taking up more oxygen." Blood-starved heart muscle is suddenly flooded with oxygen, precisely the situation that leads to cell death. Instead, Becker says, we should aim to reduce oxygen uptake, slow metabolism and adjust the blood chemistry for gradual and safe reperfusion.

    Researchers are still working out how best to do this. A study at four hospitals, published last year by the University of California, showed a remarkable rate of success in treating sudden cardiac arrest with an approach that involved, among other things, a "cardioplegic" blood infusion to keep the heart in a state of suspended animation. Patients were put on a heart-lung bypass machine to maintain circulation to the brain until the heart could be safely restarted. The study involved just 34 patients, but 80 percent of them were discharged from the hospital alive. In one study of traditional methods, the figure was about 15 percent.

    Becker also endorses hypothermia—lowering body temperature from 37 to 33 degrees Celsius—which appears to slow the chemical reactions touched off by reperfusion. He has developed an injectable slurry of salt and ice to cool the blood quickly that he hopes to make part of the standard emergency-response kit. "In an emergency department, you work like mad for half an hour on someone whose heart stopped, and finally someone says, 'I don't think we're going to get this guy back,' and then you just stop," Becker says. The body on the cart is dead, but its trillions of cells are all still alive. Becker wants to resolve that paradox in favor of life.

    URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18368186/site/newsweek?GT1=9951
     
  2. RacerX_GTO

    RacerX_GTO F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 2, 2003
    14,797
    Oregon
    Full Name:
    Gabe V.
    Well, for starters(no pun intended) I foresee insurance woes.
     
  3. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2003
    18,094
    Savannah
    great post.

    not sure what they can do about it.


    but thats why i work on airplanes and not people!
     
  4. UroTrash

    UroTrash Four Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Jan 20, 2004
    40,591
    Purgatory
    Full Name:
    Clifford Gunboat
    purty wild stuff!
     
  5. BLUROAD

    BLUROAD F1 Veteran

    Feb 3, 2006
    6,081
    Tustin Ranch, Cali
    Full Name:
    Enrico Pollini
    How many more people will die using traditional methods until they figure this out??? JJ
     
  6. Zahiba

    Zahiba Formula 3

    Mar 29, 2005
    1,427
    Victoria, Canada
    Full Name:
    Malcolm
    Fascinating! Thanks for posting
     
  7. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
    Honorary Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 5, 2001
    6,579
    Austin, TX
    Full Name:
    William Maxwell Hart
    Walt Disney knew this. And, I also saw it in The Re-Animator, a film which gave new meaning to the term, 'giving head.'
    It is nonetheless fascinating. Thanks for posting that.
     
  8. TheBigEasy

    TheBigEasy F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Jun 21, 2005
    18,734
    California
    Full Name:
    Ethan Hunt
    Interesting! I sure they figure all this out before I get old... :eek:
     
  9. DGS

    DGS Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    May 27, 2003
    72,516
    MidTN
    Full Name:
    DGS
    By the time you're old, the courts will have ruled that you're clinically "dead" the moment you pick up the salt shaker.
     
  10. LetsJet

    LetsJet F1 Veteran
    Owner

    May 24, 2004
    9,334
    DC/LA/Paris/Haleiwa
    Full Name:
    Mr.
    In the industry of medicine, where I see a lot of old methods still used, it's refreshing to see new advances.
     
  11. TheBigEasy

    TheBigEasy F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Jun 21, 2005
    18,734
    California
    Full Name:
    Ethan Hunt
    I'm not worried about US courts... by that time the US and Middle East will have nuked themselves into oblivion and I will be living in a beach house in Australia or Brazil with a new Ferrari and a beautiful wife. :)
     
  12. djui5

    djui5 F1 Veteran

    Aug 9, 2006
    5,418
    Phoenix, Arizona
    The human desire to maintain, and protect life has never ceased to amaze me.
     
  13. mdoan300

    mdoan300 Karting

    Nov 14, 2003
    231
    North Texas
    Full Name:
    Michael
    And this is how horror movies begin... Resident Evil anybody?

    ///Michael
     
  14. ski_bum

    ski_bum Formula 3

    Dec 26, 2002
    1,492
    San Diego
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Hey, everyone knows it's actually the midichlorians, and and for some the Force is strong.
     
  15. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2003
    3,932
    Brilliant post. Thanks for that.

    If there could be some way to deactivate or inhibit the apoptosis process temporarily, the cell death would not occur.
     
  16. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2003
    3,932
    At least a few hundred million.
     
  17. drjohngober

    drjohngober Formula 3

    Jul 23, 2006
    2,040
    Cville and Gbury Tex
    Full Name:
    Dr.John Gober
    Biologically and physiologically absolute rubbish. Not one ounce of of truth in the entire article.
     
  18. snj5

    snj5 F1 World Champ

    Feb 22, 2003
    10,213
    San Antonio
    Full Name:
    Russ Turner
    I'm pretty skeptical....
    It'll have to be on "The View" before I believe it.
     
  19. ski_bum

    ski_bum Formula 3

    Dec 26, 2002
    1,492
    San Diego
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Yeah, a live demonstration. Rosie's almost dead on that show...
     
  20. QT3141

    QT3141 Formula Junior

    Jul 24, 2006
    609
    I wouldn't say it's absolute rubbish. Reperfusion injury is a well established concept in pathophysiology, pertinent especially in stroke victims.

    There is quite a lot of rubbish in the article, though. The bit about cardiac myocytes not being visibly "killed" one hour after ischemia is nonsense. Coagulation necrosis is not clinically apparent under the light microscope for quite a while, but irreversible ultrastructural changes (sarcolemmal membrane defects) are obvious under the electron microscope within 20 to 40 minutes, well under an hour.

    And apoptosis is not under the "control" of mitochondria - there is a complex enzymatic process known as the caspase cascade that takes place in the cytosol (outside the organelle known as the mitochondrion) that gets the ball rolling. Apoptosis involves many involved changes occurring in tandem, culminating in a precise step ladder disintegration of nucleic acid and formation of membrane bound apoptotic bodies. It's a very cool process that I've studied in some detail previously.
     
  21. avalon96

    avalon96 Rookie

    Jul 23, 2004
    40
    Right. It isn't under the control of the mitochondria, but the mitochondria releases cytochrome C which is one of those intermediary effectors of apoptosis. I think that is what they were getting at. But you are absolutely right.

    I think this was a journalist digging for a story...manipulating solid research into a catchy headline. I seriously doubt we are going to reanimate those that are declared dead or put into suspended animation. The economics of it just don't work out--as sad as that sounds, it is the truth.
     
  22. QT3141

    QT3141 Formula Junior

    Jul 24, 2006
    609
    Right you are. Wouldn't call that "control", but that must've been what they were driving at. Cytochrome c is a respiratory chain enzyme, for those who might be wondering.

    Wouldn't be the first time that has happened mate. :)
     
  23. Buzz48317

    Buzz48317 F1 Rookie

    Dec 5, 2005
    2,862
    Shelby Twp., MI
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Hate to contradict you there Whart, but Walt Disney wasn't frozen...he went the other way and was cremated on December 17, 1966 at Forest Lawn Cemetery.
     
  24. jungathart

    jungathart Guest

    Jun 11, 2004
    3,376
    NoVA, AmeriKa
    Full Name:
    Komrade Jung
    I believe only his head was frozen. Please verify.

    Fascinating and tantalizing article, nevertheless.
     
  25. James_Woods

    James_Woods F1 World Champ

    May 17, 2006
    12,755
    Dallas, Tx.
    Full Name:
    James K. Woods
    A rather diverse cinematic analogy - Mickey Mouse/Jeffrey Combs
     

Share This Page