NEW MID ENGINED V6 (LITTLE BROTHER) | Page 108 | FerrariChat

NEW MID ENGINED V6 (LITTLE BROTHER)

Discussion in '296' started by ajr550, Feb 28, 2019.

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  1. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    793
    Hockenheim, Germany
    The assembly yes, but the pure body assembly at the Scaglietti plant can be shifted to assemble car bodies/chassis made out of any material, right? It is often referred to that Ferrari is heavily invested in metal and alu technology. They have their own foundry and mechanical department, but that relates to the engine production. From what I can tell the chassis and body parts are all sourced from external suppliers.
     
  2. Natkingcolebasket69

    Natkingcolebasket69 F1 World Champ

    It’s the doors lol


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  3. wthensler

    wthensler F1 Rookie
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    Sorry to burst your bubble, but......the CF versus aluminum tub issue is largely irrelevant.

    Couple weeks back I did an experiment at “Dragon’s Tail”, 11 miles of smooth but extremely challenging, twisty roads - with the 458’s top both up and down. I’ve run this stretch dozens of times, so I’m at least semi familiar with it (c’mon down if you ever wanna try).

    I pushed the 458 as hard as I dared, CT off, operating at the edge of ‘failure’. I observed no discernible difference in the handling characteristics of the car. Top down the vehicle is still well planted. Since I can’t go and put a CF tub in the 458 and repeat under the same conditions, this is as close to a controlled experiment as it comes.

    I conclude ‘cowl shake’ is a phenomenon that exists on bumpy roads (e.g., potholes, etc.), which renders the ride no fun anyway. High speed vibration transmitted to the cockpit. Is a Spider worse than a coupe under these conditions? Absolutely. Do I care? No, because the ride ***** anyway - coupe or no coupe.

    At the track? Well, I don’t know and also largely don’t care, at least for the 458. I’ll get a track car for that......

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  4. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Wait...you did a comparison of a carbon tub car vs a aluminum chassis car but only drove one car? :)
     
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  5. That's why, as he said, it's largely irrelevant.
     
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  6. Shack

    Shack F1 Rookie
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    I really hope that this is a lesson for Ferrari !!!
     
  7. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Embarrassing. Hopefully they fired the idiot whose idea it was.
     
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  8. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

    Dec 9, 2014
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    #2683 Coincid, Jun 14, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
    The cowl shake is indicative of a compromise in the rigidity of the chassis. It exists on all road surfaces but will be more pervasive on rough bumpy roads since the torsional rigidity of the chassis is subject to motional forces which when set in motion continue for a specified period. Whether it is a serious or minor issue for one or not is not the point. Personally I find it highly irritating. Cowl shake will inevitably negatively impact on a myriad of performance parameters which in a high performance super car is undesirable.
     
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  9. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

    Dec 9, 2014
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    I tried driving the car with the doors open, but the car won’t start.
     
  10. wthensler

    wthensler F1 Rookie
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    #2685 wthensler, Jun 14, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021

    @Socal, no, there’s no way to do CF versus non-CF. Top up versus down with all other parameters (driver skill, car, road, speed, etc) kept as constant as possible. Incidentally, you’re well into driver skill up there and only in a few, sparse stretches will your Pista really outshine a 458 (conjecture, opinion). But I’ll have a hell of a time trying and provide a full report if you supply the goods, lol.

    Whether it is serious or not is the only point. I’m stating it is not serious on smooth surfaces, proven by the best experiment I could devise. If you want to drive your supercar on bumpy roads, then for you it’s serious.

    Solid mechanics tells us that all chassis are ‘compromised’ and subject to reaction from applied conditions (the road). In the equation below, if T is applied slowly enough (twisty road versus bumpy), the maximum shear perturbation (tau) is not perceptible under driving conditions for the two torsion constants (CF versus aluminum).

    Clearly Ferrari has decided it’s not a big deal. McLaren has made great hay stating it is. I’m inclined to agree with Ferrari on this one, but all opinions are valid for the type of driving one does.

    By the way, I ride nothing but carbon fiber bikes because they are superior on bumpy roads.


    [​IMG]

    where.....

    [​IMG] = applied torque or moment of torsion in Nm
    [​IMG] = maximum shear stress at the outer surface
    [​IMG] = torsion constant for the section
    [​IMG] = perpendicular distance between the rotational axis and the farthest point in the section (at the outer surface).
     
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  11. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    We will just have to agree to disagree. Yes there is no way to directly compare the exact same car with carbon tub and sans carbon tub but you get a pretty good idea driving two competitive cars.

    It’s like if all you have had your entire life is vanilla
    Ice cream, you think that vanilla ice cream is the best thing ever. And don’t get me wrong. I love vanilla ice cream. It’s just awesome. Then one day I tried salted caramel. And I thought to my self - man that vanilla ice cream is really really good. But salted Carmel is just better. And I never would have know if I didn’t try them both.
     
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  12. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2011
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    Just driving around a windy road it wont be so obvious but as you push the car you can start to feel it. So if your use is just buzzing around on smooth roads no problem but anything more and you'll notice your mirror shaking at minimum and then some body flex. In the race cars we have a cage that completely changes the dynamics, essentially we are driving a cage with body panels so carbon isn't that important except these cars still weigh about 3000lbs.

    In regards to it being a big deal or not, I believe Ferrari feels that they dont have to make this change because most buyers dont really push they're cars, they just want something pretty and fast. I do find it interesting however that they go to carbon on their more "special" cars, that alone should tell you something.
     
  13. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 F1 Rookie
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  14. wthensler

    wthensler F1 Rookie
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    Well, from the pics I can’t see body flex - not that you’d see it anyway. What’s far more obvious is body roll and some understeer. Whether a more rigid chassis would mitigate these I don’t know.

    Oh, and lots of brake pad debris on the car from running the car in Race mode (before turning all that **** off).

    I can say the 458 is plenty playful if pushed hard. I didn’t find it overly twitchy or unpredictable.

    Finally, @Coincid’s point about the Daytona seats is spot on. I shall never buy or spec a car with Daytona seats knowing it’ll be driven this way. Never. They are a downright hazard in these conditions.
     
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  15. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    This all suspension tuning and easy enough to change. Most cars come with the understeer bias for safety reasons but not all sit so high which gives you that body roll. A set of springs and slight lowering will help that big time.

    Yes for the race seats, that is the only option for me spec'ing a new Ferrari.
     
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  16. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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  17. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
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    I can confirm that there is a marked difference. I don’t really have much to add to the carbon versus aluminum comparison that has not already been covered ad nauseam. No amount of facts and logic will overcome the fan boy allegiance. I should mention that there are very few cars that I flat don’t like. To me they are all tools, and every problem requires a different tool. I have never understood the blind loyalty for Ferrari, nor the animus often directed to McLaren.

    Specifically, as it relates to the Pista and 765LT, the cars could scarcely be more different. The differences start with the carbon versus aluminum construction, but do not end there. The 765LT is unapologetically raw, loud, brash, harsh, noisy, surgical, and, frankly, uncomfortable. The Pista is quiet, quick, gorgeous, spacious, and, dare I say, comfortable. The Pista could be easily used as a daily, and to do so with a 765LT would be nearly impossible. Naturally, I love both and I think they each belong in a proper collection, but I can easily why some might prefer one over the other. They are quite different.

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  18. babgh

    babgh Karting

    Dec 21, 2016
    137

    Actually

    458 --- mp4-12c
    458 Speciale --- 12c(reboot)/12c HS
    488 GTB -- 650S
    488 Pista - 675LT

    720S -- LB or SF90
    765LT -- LB VS or SF90 Assetto Fiorano

    Mclaren released the 650S immediately as 12c was kind of a flop despite its performance so the 720S actually is a newer generation compared to 488 regardless of what year it was released. Whether you like it or you don't like to admit it this is how it should look like if it weren't for mclaren releasing new models like smartphone manufacturers updating their flagship phone every 6 months.

    Don't get me wrong I love ferrari but I still perceive that they are overpriced despite its aluminium construction maybe the engine is the one that has an expensive production and R&D costs together with the electronics; but still it is not a good excuse to charge that much especially when the cars are slightly below par on what they are declaring on paper especially its kerb weight.
     
  19. Shack

    Shack F1 Rookie
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    Clearly you are a fan :)
     
  20. 9nb

    9nb Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2012
    664
    9 more sleeps till we see LB, I’m pretty excited to see what Ferrari makes for their less serious and more fun oriented car! Hoping to see an invite with a tease soon..


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  21. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Sorry. This makes no sense. 675 LT in 2015. Pista came out in 2020. You are comparing models released 5 years apart?

    And 720 and 765 are not hybrid whereas LB and SF 90 are.

    Your comparison makes no sense.
     
  22. Senad

    Senad Formula Junior

    May 14, 2019
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    675 2015
    pista 2018
    so 3 years apart.
     
  23. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    The 720 was released as a competitor to the 488 as production for the 650/675 ended in 2016 The year the 488 was released. Then the Pista in 2019 and 765 as the track version soon after.

    There isn’t a direct model comparison as Ferrari and Mclaren are on different cycles but you cannot compare the 720 to the hybrid models of Ferrari.

    And depending on where LB comes in, we may have no direct competition Any more between the two brands as they both are doing different things with their models.
     
  24. Senad

    Senad Formula Junior

    May 14, 2019
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    i don't know when production ended but
    Geneva 2015 675 LT
    Geneva 2018 Pista.
    so in this regard it is 3 years.
    Regarding carbon tube i am with you.
    Same goes regarding comparing hybrid with not hybrid, no comparison there.
    Lb -Artura.
    Have to say i like Artura, the profile especially remind me of Ferrari in this way, with that side went,not sold on the front though, but overall i like it,
    let's see in 10 days what lb turns out
     
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  25. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    9 Days and counting. :). We will know soon enough. Looking forward to the reveal.
     
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