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NEW MID ENGINED V6 (LITTLE BROTHER)

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by ajr550, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Rookie
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    I would really like to see some numbers but looking at the pictures and the video, there are aluminum sub-frames and extensions front and back and the roof structure looks to be aluminum also. There also seems to be some add-on finishing cladding around the door openings which are non-structural but which add some weight.

    So in effect, the actual amount of CF replacing aluminum is limited to the floor and front and rear bulkheads. So the weight saving from the McL “CF chassis” would be an approximately 40% savings on a portion of the car structure and so a fraction of the overall weight of the car.

    Of course the proof-is-in-the-pudding of overall car weight is influenced by powertrain, safety and convenience features so not just the chassis part of the equation.

    Personally, I think for McL there are major elements of product distinction (marketing) and production costs involved in going with CF—see the use of less optimized, less labor intensive RTM process and the parts count reduction for assembly, as stated by the McL plant manager.
     
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  3. wthensler

    wthensler Formula 3
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    While I may be or may never own a McLaren I have four high end carbon fiber road bikes and can attest to the weight savings and performance attributes of CF frames. They flex exactly where and when they need to. The ride quality is sublime.

    I thought the video quite informative except for the 100 double decker busses part, lol.

    Clearly McLaren has spent a lot of time and resources developing this platform. Somehow I just can’t see Ferrari making the same commitment......
     
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  4. Doug23

    Doug23 Karting

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    In my opinion they switched from the plain 430-458-488 progression to a different name ( F8) purposely to break the increasing number series.

    Inviato dal mio BAH-L09 utilizzando Tapatalk
     
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  5. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Ferrari is lazy. They sell every car they make. Why invest millions into a carbon tub when the Ferrari Fan Club has declared a carbon tub useless.
     
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  6. [gTr]

    [gTr] Formula Junior

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    How does using an Al tub for non-hypercars make Ferrari lazy? This is a pure business decision for them. They invested in an Al factory and they will milk it for as long as they can but that is not because they are lazy but because its good business. How many times has McLaren needed a financial rescue in the past 5 years?
    I admit that McLaren mid-engine spiders have a clear chassis flex advantage over the Ferrari ones so far but somehow Ferrari spiders still sell well/better :D.
    I am also very interested to see how the new chassis with its carbon rear-bulkhead in the SF90 flexes in the spider form vs the coupe. If the flex in SF90 is not noticeable like it is in the 4xx/F8 series then maybe Ferrari really has no need to invest in a carbon tub for their mainstream cars.
     
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  8. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Rookie
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    Ferrari are lazy because they don’t make about 1/3 to 1/2 of the chassis structure in CF like McL? What to say of those downright slugs at Porsche with their steel cars? ;) They just make money.
     
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  9. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 Veteran
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    Ferrari has more models. McLaren only one.
     
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  10. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    They sell every car they make. Why invest millions into a carbon tub when the Ferrari Fan Club has declared a carbon tub useless
     
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  11. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

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    Every decision Ferrai takes is a business decision, no need to highlight that. If being invested in a more than aged aluminium chassis plant is the main reason which prevents them from using a carbon tub, it's a dangerous and alarming business decion though. It shouldn't prevent them from investing in new stuff. With a strategy focused on squeezing out every bit from existing assets without making smart investments, any company will become obsolete sooner or later.
     
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  13. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    #1385 SoCal to az, Feb 12, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2021
    Make no mistake it’s all about money. Like I said they sell every car they make so why would they invest into something that would cost them money and maybe not give them an Roi.. The basic question is do you believe that a carbon tub is superior to a steel structure. I believe that it is having both. If you don’t believe that then that’s fine then Ferrari is doing no wrong. I’m of the opinion that they can do better by improving their cars in their technology.
     
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  14. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    I agree with this.
     
  15. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    #1387 Lukeylikey, Feb 13, 2021
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    I think that an aluminium-based factory is significantly higher investment than for carbon. Carbon tubs are usually produced by outside suppliers where the factory build cost is significantly less than the Maranello plant. However, I would be pretty certain that the piece cost is higher for carbon tubs. Technically, I believe it is McLaren who more closely fit the ‘lazy’ description. Except, of course, it is nothing like laziness. To choose a technology that uses a higher piece cost but lower initial investment makes perfect sense for a new startup. All the more so when McLaren’s history is so tied up with carbon.

    As has been the subject of many discussions before, there are pros and cons to both methods. Since Ferrari had already taken the decision to invest in state-of-the-art aluminium production long before McLaren started using their new mashed carbon (instead of the super-expensive layered type like the LaF), what sense does it make to write off that investment prematurely? They could only do that if aluminium were now not fit for purpose. Their subsequent sales record shows that not to be true and they are not producing an inferior product. Carbon certainly has a higher strength-to-weight coefficient, which is good in an automotive application. This only means that it costs Ferrari a (small if you consider the total vehicle) penalty in weight to get the required stiffness for handling and crashworthiness. Since the latter depends on planned deformation to be effective, aluminium is a perfectly suitable solution to achieve that. There is also the issue of long-term repairability, which favours aluminium over carbon. True, carbon tubs are better for spiders but again, Ferrari’s products are well received and still competitive - to those who buy them, what you lose in rigidity is made up in other areas. It’s not as if customers aren’t aware of this, yet they still buy.

    The lower piece cost must afford Ferrari a good degree of protection, especially in times of global crisis like the 2008 financial crisis and the pandemic we have today. This, far short of being laziness, is probably driven by a healthy desire to survive and borne out of the experience of 70 years’ understanding that it is very easy to do the opposite.

    I’m currently planning to buy a new road bike (cycle) - if you think car people can be brutal and argumentative, wait until you hear the cycling crowd! The frame is a pretty important element and there are various material solutions - of course carbon, but also titanium, aluminium and even steel. When done well, steel is still considered an excellent choice by many in the industry. At first that doesn’t make much sense, given that weight is a very important element to a road bike and a few grams can be critical. However, steel is comfortable, rides well and is durable. Unless you are Peter Sagan, you may not need the small weight saving that carbon brings but you may well benefit from the other advantages steel has. It’s the same for solutions like titanium. They each have their advantages and disadvantages and one does not invalidate the other. Some of the world’s most expensive frames are built out of a mix of carbon and metal, mainly because the stiffness of carbon is useful in certain parts but the properties of titanium, for example, make for an arguably better choice of bottom bracket for ride-ability. It’s never as simple as saying ‘this one is good, that one is bad’.
     
  16. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

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    Ferrari makes carbon fiber tubs for only their Halo models. Ferrari cites that in spite of the weight penalty, that aluminum has advantages in terms of aftermarket structural repair. How many body shops have the equipment and training to repair a broken tub Or would accident damage require replacement of the entire tub? Since tub replacement requires the entire car to be dismantled, would costs to repair be too high to justify repair?
     
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  17. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    If an exotic crashes, 90% of the time they total the car.
     
  18. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

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    One of the other difference is that with aluminum there is better ingress and egress due to the smaller less bulky and wide side sill. And I believe that the interior space is larger with aluminum compared to a carbon tub. The 812, Portofino, Roma, and Purosangue do not lend themselves to carbon tubs,
     
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  19. ingegnere

    ingegnere F1 Rookie
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    You raise an interesting point with the shape of the the tub and its affect on ingress/egress. That is that any advantage in stiffness from a CF tub shaped like that would be in large part erased if Ferrari were to design their tubs with wide and tall sills—at the cost, of course, of higher weight/stiffness ratio of aluminum—but Ferrari chose not to do so.

    I believe that with the new generation of aluminum platforms, which use more stamped elements, they could do so if they chose to.
     
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  20. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

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    Ouch!
     
  21. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 Veteran
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    Simple fact is Ferrari invested in Aluminium.

    They have many more models. McLaren basically one, a rear mid engine 2 seater , and a 3 seater lets not count that horrible thing.

    Ferrari makes its own engines again Aluminium.

    Lets see where they sit when every company has a 4WD and an electric one going forward.
     
  22. D11

    D11 Karting

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    Agree above - Ferrari’s investment in their aluminum production pre dating the newer to date efficiencies of producing carbon tubs may have changed their direction had that been known information at the time of the aluminum production facility investment. Moving forward, as SoCal to az commented, is the return on investment worthwhile at this point in time? Likely not yet for many of the various comments above that there are some advantages to aluminum too. If I heard correctly, SF90 Spider has aluminum and carbon utilized in the chassis. I would be willing to bet that is likely a route they go with more regular production mid engine cars where performance comparisons with rivals matter more. Your vast majority of Portofino, Roma, and Lusso buyers are probably not overly concerned with how much my Portofino outperforms a Vantage or Bentley.

    With that said, I think the two companies are taking somewhat of a differentiated approach...
    Ask yourself this - who seriously tracks their Ferrari Spiders where chassis flex is of such concern? I think Ferrari is building Spiders as higher emotion, lifestyle cars, clearly for the high demand in open top driving that exists. Look at the back log of F8 Spider demand and you can clearly see there is no reason for a ground up revamp because demand is not there. McLaren on the other hand is all about performance. McLaren has found a way to homologate a similar tub/engine combination across their lineup with gradual tweaks through new car development. A very economical way to build multiple car platforms at reasonable cost. The tub sill, while addressed from the 12c/650s/675LT platform and made better for the 720s, is not as easy to get in and out of to take your spouse out to dinner in and look somewhat graceful getting in and out of the car.

    To each is own, but we all often jump on the automotive journalist subtle criticisms of cars for those who are looking hard for comparisons in their profession. And respectfully, I understand that’s somewhat what these forums are for, to discuss our shared passions and their subtleties, but I for one have never looked at a Ferrari Spider versus a McLaren Spider and simply said the chassis flex of the Ferrari will make it so much less desirable in cruising around or even on spirited drives. I know the limitations of my driving abilities and how hard I’m ever going to push the cars limits, what Chris Harris feels getting a car side ways at Fiorano doesn’t really impact my buying decisions.
     
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  23. mayer

    mayer Karting

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  24. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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  25. buddyg

    buddyg F1 Rookie
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  26. ScrappyB

    ScrappyB Formula Junior

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    So around 1,330 (2,930 lbs) dry based on what’s published for the 570S.
     
  27. Roccob

    Roccob Rookie

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