New Studs? Experts Please

Not sure about the studs Carter but please post pics and a blow by blow. Thanks...Jim

 

They are re-usable, according to Ferrari specification. But, they most often do get replaced --- you will discover why that it is when you (try to) remove them / clean them up .

 

If the studs are not corroded it's best to leave them alone, removing them is never easy and in 99.99% of the time I have to have them EDM removed. As I'm building these engines where I have to remove the liners and studs it's not an option to keep them.

the replacement studs from Ferrari are junk, wouldn't trust them to hold a spice rack. ARP doesn't have an off-shelf option, however I think a few over the yrs have had some custom made. I get new ones custom made for the engines we do from another Co, however they are not cheap. I'd have to find out the retail cost for them if your really interested.

getting the heads off will be job 1, and sometimes it's a breeze, other times you learn new curse words in Italian.

The problem is two fold, steel stud and aluminum block, leaky head gaskets and coolant passages that add to the galvanic corrosion so the studs end up welded to the heads.

 

Does this apply to all models?

 

They are re-useable out of pure necessity, removing them almost always destroys them. I'd always wanted to get one checked for composition as they are soft!.

 

Good question, for the 3x8 and F40, yep. Not sure on the later stuff though. For the cost of Ferrari head studs you can get them custom made and be sure of their strength.

 

So, the replacement are not as good as the original or were they (originals)bad to begin with? Should we expect problems with the original studs being soft?

 

I wouldn't worry about the original studs, the soft I was referring to is more related to the youngs modulus. Originals are just fine, the new ones are not NOS but seem to be made by the lowest bidder.

 

Got it. I wonder why Ferrari would continue to supply something so important as a stud when it's a known that they are crap?


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This is one case where if it is not broke, don't even think about fixing it.

 

SMG, wasn't Steve D using A-1 Technologies stuff? I guess they are no longer around. Website is gone.

 

Here are a few sources you may want to check out if you decide / end up replacing them ---


https://www.dinoparts.eu/EN/ferrari-308-gtb-gts/engine/cylinder-head/cylinder-head-nuts/studs-head-high-tensile-208-308.html

Engine (General) Parts for Ferrari 308, 208, 288 GTO & F40 - Superformance

 

I guess I would ask why you want to do this unless you have over 100K miles on the engine. If you did a little search history you will see this can and most likely be a horrendous job. Do you have a head gasket problem or a compression problem . If so you can't avoid this job but if just to replace valves I would think twice about doing this. I don't think there has been anyone on this board that have broken a valve so it is pretty rare. I also bet once you pull the engine you are going to go through the "while I'm in there" mentality and end up shelling out $10-$15K . Good luck on what every you do , we'll all be watching.

 

We reused the studs, cleaned them up and put them back.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/308-328/375747-77-gtb-21039-restoration-7.html

 

I will not reuse Ferrari studs. Had too many fail going back together on older motors. I have only ever once needed any special help getting studs removed from a block and that was a C4 a few years ago that had never been apart.


Ferrari replacement studs are trash. I sent a brand new F50 stud to ARP and they simply refused to believe it really was a head stud from Ferrari.


I have had ARP make many head stud sets for me. Motion Industries makes them too.

 

+1 ARP, they made a set of studs for me and they came out great. Not cheap. For a 2v engine, the studs aren't difficult to remove, at least I haven't had any issues. 4v may be a different story as I hear a lot more stories about the heads being difficult to remove due to corrossion at the studs...

 

How did you get so lucky? I've only had 1 block that was relatively easy, only 2 studs needed extreme prejudice to remove. if they don't remove cold i.e. room temp then it's off to the oven for a soak followed by a freeze blast to the stud, that in 80% of the cases gets them out, after that it takes it up to a beeswax or oil penetrating cycle, if that doesn't work, off to the EDM guy. Worst block needed 8 removed that way!

OP, this is a can-o-worms question. Brian's right about not re-using them, i.e. I wouldn't pull them out and re-install, he may not even leave them be at all -don't know, but as a shop owner it's not worth the risk to have to the job all over again. The unknown is how hard or easy it will be to get it apart and the studs out, once that road is taken be prepared to spend money. If it was my personal engine I'd strip it down and go thru it replacing head studs and bearings. On the heads all new guides, seats and valves.

For the cost of oem repop junk you can get custom made performance parts. Hence the big reason why the builds I do are for getting more power out of them, have to spend the money to it right, why not get more back for it?

 

The whole reason these motors are frightfully expensive to rebuild. You either pay Ferrari prices like $100 per ring or you have custom one off stuff made by people like ARP.

Want a set of head studs for a BB Chevy? Catalog item....chump change. Ferrari motor? Custom made. 1st one costs what 10 sets of BB chevy studs cost.

That's why I tell people take care of your 308 motor, it will cost you a 308 to rebuild it.

I had someone ask what it would cost to build a 3.5L motor like I did for my own 328. I didn't even quote the job, I just said "more than the car is worth".



You can buy every part and build a top dollar, best of the best Chevy motor from the oil drain plug to the air cleaner wing nut with starter, alternator and headers included for less the a V8 Ferrari rebuild. 12 Cyl rebuild? Now we're talking real money.


A quality motor overhaul in a 308 or 328 if you pay someone to do it or put any dollar value on your own time is close to or more than the car is worth. It can only be done as a labor of love. A car with a bad motor is worth enough as a parts car it makes no sense to fix it.

 

QV doesn't suffer any more from corrosion around the studs. The studs are just difficult to access so getting the heads off is more of a challenge. Also most of the 2v heads have been removed over their life time already. Most QV's have not. Difficulty is in direct relation to time since last removal.

 

Does anyone have any idea who makes them for Superformance? I know they sell them for a reasonable price but I've never had one in hand before.

 

Neither have I but I have had far too much trouble with UK built Ferrari parts to risk it. Hill is the only one I have been happy with. I stick to the homeboys for the most part.
There are obviously exceptions but unless there is a name attached like Hill or Cosworth I stay away. I need to guarantee stuff so I don't experiment much. I know the good guys and the bad guys here.

 

This is really it.

Clean them up, and let sleeping dogs lie, IMO.
Also don't get all 'gorilla' on the reassembly.

Aluminum motors need to be treated with finesse, not an impact gun!!!!

To the OP please do tell us how it all goes.
It is the dread of all of us, the valves, but tear down of a 30 year old lump is quite the daunting task!!!

 

So very true. A re-build done right or 'hot' build is going to start ~25k and go up. supercharged 3.5L or 4L, now we're tickling 100k. V12's? yeah, that's real money!

If I sat and calc'd out my time on these builds I'm afraid to find that I'm either paying myself pennies or loosing money. As you say the worst part is custom runs of parts, batches of 10~12 are about the most cost effective gamble. who doesn't like spending tens of thousands on a single part waiting yrs to break even again? I need my head checked!

why do I do it? I'm a petrol head engineer with a background in high energy physics, I like things to be ground shaking powerful while going stupid fast! It might be cheaper to start putting ion drives in these things then we'd to start handing out hyperspace licenses!

 

My luck has been a streak of 'stories' engines, that would most likely be the reason for the hassle. The 1 that had 18 studs come out with zero issue was a clean well maintained engine, single owner. The others well.... combination of engines gone POP from belts or past histories of trouble. I have a QV right now where bank 5-8 practically fell off the block, 1-4 is still welded on! me thinks that it was removed once before. history of severe overheating on this one.