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NEW V8 MID ENGINED MODEL (BIG BROTHER)

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by ajr550, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. Scudmsl

    Scudmsl Karting
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    Aug 12, 2014
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  2. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    5,336
    Bournemouth, UK
    Ah this is the Soyuz capsule. The Soyuz rocket has all the cool flames that shoot cosmonauts and astronauts to the ISS. Of course, we, educated people know all these.

    But this cracked me up. NASA's narration, ostensibly intended for a 5 to 6 year old child. This is the best part: "How Does the Soyuz Launch and Land?
    The Soyuz launches from a country named Kazakhstan. It is Russia’s neighbor to the south."
    https://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/k-4/stories/nasa-knows/what-is-the-soyuz-spacecraft-k-4

    That lost country, Kazahhstan... like Atlantis. :D
     
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  3. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    5,336
    Bournemouth, UK
    I like your line of thought, sir. I would rather have the full V12 though. Much obliged.
     
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  4. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    5,336
    Bournemouth, UK
    Of course not for a 500k car. For the next LF though? ;)
     
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  5. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    771
    Austin TX
    It's a serious thought, the 812 (as all current Ferraris) will require a gasoline particulate filter (GPF) for EU RDE/WLTP satisfaction starting in 2020, otherwise, no penalty to pay, EU will issue stop-sale for non-compliant cars...

    so, speaking to "one exhaust system", the difficulty at the moment is Australia, their gasoline contains too much sulphur and as a result, no GPF can be fitted due to the excessive sulphur (50ppm for premium fuel, 150ppm for regular fuel) choking the GPF devices...(this is from Porsche and others, some others will simply discontinue production for Australia, to whit:

    https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/australia-becoming-an-automotive-third-world-country-says-jaguar-land-rover-74010

    https://www.caradvice.com.au/730841/porsche-australian-fuel-standards-debate/

    so, what to do?

    will Ferrari abandon Australia ? According to Ferrari’s CEO for Australasia, Herbert Appleroth, absolutely not:

    https://www.ausbt.com.au/ferrari-f8-tributo-is-the-prancing-horse-s-most-impressive-v8-yet

    Thus, will Ferrari have two production exhaust systems, one with GPF one without?

    They must be thinking this and that will be quite costly, and it's not just the 812, but all cars they produce (F8, etc)

    So, Ferrari will apparently do what Porsche has already done, one exhaust for EU/China (GPF) and one for the rest of the world...

    To add fuel to this fire, I have received word from several USA Ferrari Dealers that the 812, for MY2020, will not have GPF...
     
  6. JTSE30

    JTSE30 Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2004
    771
    Austin TX
    Ok, I think there is a lot "stretching the ideas" to come to the conclusion...

    At present, the EU plans to completely discontinue all 'niche derogations' for smv's in 2028:

    https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2019/01/16/co2-emission-standards-for-cars-and-vans-council-confirms-agreement-on-stricter-limits/

    that's less than 10 years and your indication 'short term' 5 years, well, you have to realize that each '812' type car made/registered in EU in 2028 would, at present rates, include a CO2 penalty exceeding €30,000 ...that would be the cost per car

    anyway, I will stick closer to what is accepted, that is, Ferrari only announces plan 5 years in advanced..so mid-term, at the latest would be end of 2021
     
  7. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    carefully listed with links to the stories backing up those ideas, great work putting all that together and time consuming to. Thank you!
     
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  8. Modificata

    Modificata F1 Rookie
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    Apr 27, 2003
    2,650
    Hampton, England
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    Andy Rasool
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  9. F140C

    F140C Formula Junior

    Nov 25, 2016
    985
    Piedmont
    Didn't know the embargo timings were already decided, thanks for that info. By the way the P80/C wasn't one of the 5 models to be unveiled this year, there are still 4 left (F8 Spider, 812 Spider, Portofino Coupé and the new hybrid supercar).
     
  10. Modificata

    Modificata F1 Rookie
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    Thanks. I thought it was one of the five. 2019 is gonna be one hell of a year!
     
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  11. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
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    Sep 1, 2010
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    Alberto
    I'm with Pepper: He changed his mind about engine position too. He was not a technician at all, but he was an intelligent man who could admit to be wrong or learn the necessity of doing something even if he didn't like it. For example he hired Harvey Postlethwaite in 1981, an "hated" Briton... It was unbelievable just some years before

    ciao
     
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  12. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    Mar 3, 2012
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    UK
    You have to be a little careful in how you interpret this. The context of this agreement is that it was supposed to be much stronger originally. However, the Germans proposed that the 2030 emissions tarriff be watered down and it was accepted - from about 45% (from memory) to 37% below current levels. They did this because there is a growing realisation in Europe of just what a mess they are creating. Up to now the three invested parties - the taxing governments, the green lobbies and the motor industry - have all been keen to increase emissions regs. You can understand the first two groups but the European industry has used this legislation as a barrier to entry/trade restriction for Japanese, American and especially Chinese products on the basis that the best ICE engineers reside within European manufacturers. However, the legislation has now pushed so far that even Europe’s ICE engineers cannot cope. So battery is needed. No manufacturer makes profit from battery vehicles (I have heard this repeatedly from the Presidents of various car manufacturers - a familiar theme). The profit goes to the battery producer, and why wouldn’t it? They have the scarce technology that has now become critical for manufacturers to sell cars. Europe has no battery industry. Guess where it is? A very small amount in the US and Japan but the overwhelming dominance is from China, the one everyone is afraid of.

    This is the way this will work; the legislation forces fleet CO2 below a certain threshold. Manufacturers need unprofitable battery car sales to achieve this. Customers don’t really like them and won’t pay extra for them. So manufacturers will have to force customers to buy battery cars in the percentage they plan to be able to meet their fleet goals. They can only do this by subsidising the price of battery cars and (if they don’t want reduced profit) increasing the price of normal cars. They keep going until the percentage of battery cars bought equals their planned figure. The other alternative they have is to not produce battery cars a nd pay the fines on ICE cars. Some will do this, at least for a while. So the net effect is...price increases. The Germans, who have by far the largest and most powerful industry are already aware that this is costing jobs and you will see massive pressure being put on the EU to be careful with legislation....and in particular the way it is enforced. This last part is critical. Behind the scenes, despite what the rules say, those enforcing the legislation have tools and mechanisms to help the local industry adjust to a more difficult emissions regime - and these mechanisms are used a lot more than you might imagine. Europe is protectionist before it is green. In the case of this document they have been even more blatant about it - did you read it? They acknowledge that they want to help companies adjust and some of the revenue from fines will be used for that purpose! Now I don’t suppose for a minute that help will be available to non European manufacturers.

    Germany is by far the strongest voice in Europe so the fact that this 2030 agreement is watered down from the original proposal shows you the concerns within Europe about this situation. It also shows how much influence Germany has because they requested it and it got approved.

    Europe knows it needs a battery industry if it is to force car manufacturers to build with batteries, but this takes a long time. And they will never be ahead of the Chinese, in either volume or tech, in my opinion. This is a major problem brewing (and really, could they not have foreseen this a bit earlier?!)

    When they say that niche manufacturer exemption is extended to 2028, they don’t mean it will certainly disappear then, they just simply mean what they say - it is extended until then. If they need to extend it further at the relevant time they will.

    And if all that wasn’t enough, there is a review clause! Which means “if we don’t like it, or it becomes to socially painful, we can change our mind”. I work with some European and non-European manufacturers. And I can tell you, this is a serious headache for non-European manufacturers because if they go to the serious expense of meeting the standards and then the EU changes its mind because home manufacturers are struggling, their shareholders will not be impressed. You always have to remember that the EU is protectionist ahead of being anything else.
     
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  13. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    12,342
    Excellent contribution, thank you.

    Marcel Massini
     
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  14. tekaefixe

    tekaefixe Formula Junior

    May 10, 2012
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    Paulo
    How do you see Brexit? Good, bad?
     
  15. cesman

    cesman Formula Junior
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    Craig
    Irrelevant in terms of this. UK will have to play by EU emissions rules as a vehicle exporter. Many EU rules become enshrined in UK law when UK (eventually) leaves EU. Brexit is mentioned so often in this thread - but it’s really a total non-event. Worst case Ferrari’s may become a bit more expensive - although UK has said it would not tax vehicles made in EU.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  16. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Lukeylikey thank you for getting to the heart of the matter in an easy to understand way. As usual the public pays and pays for the mistakes of others. Plus the politicians continue to showcase their incompetence...
     
  17. F140C

    F140C Formula Junior

    Nov 25, 2016
    985
    Piedmont
    In an interview from 2017 Vittorio Dini talked about being forced to look for partners in the US, Japan and Korea for batteries and electric motors, hoping that the italian Motor Valley could provide some help in the future in order to develop and produce this tech in Modena, Bologna etc. I don't know how big the gap is compared to other countries, but hopefully that goal can be achieved in a not so distant future.
     
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  18. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2017
    2,449
    France
    It may however be a bad thing since if/when the UK leaves the EU, there will be less voice from manufacturers (and some with low production) in the EU, which could be detrimental for us regarding EU rulings.
     
  19. cesman

    cesman Formula Junior
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    Jul 13, 2008
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    Craig
    Where do you live Sir?


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  20. LVP488

    LVP488 Formula 3

    Jan 21, 2017
    2,449
    France
    France - and I think we need a "car lobby" as powerful as possible to protect us from a bleak automotive future...
     
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  21. cesman

    cesman Formula Junior
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    Jul 13, 2008
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    Too late for that unfortunately. And manufacturers (particularly VW) cheating emissions tests just emboldened regulators push to lower emissions. Anyway, many cities from Paris to Shanghai and London have really bad air quality - so this is only going one way...


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  22. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Jaz
    Sad but true
     
  23. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey Formula 3
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    Mar 3, 2012
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    Good being managed bad!
     
  24. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 2, 2005
    1,820
    Earth
    Even us car people need to acknowledge that air quality, noise etc etc are very valid reasons for governments to act. However in typical government fashion they look at a "one size fits all" approach and this is where their stupidity shines through. With technology the way it is they could easily have solutions which keep everyone (manufacturers, car people etc etc) happy, yet they choose blanket over-arching BS ways of approaching everything they do.

    Cows "fart" more methane and do more damage than cars - https://www.ecowatch.com/which-is-worse-for-the-planet-beef-or-cars-1919932136.html
     
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  25. markcs

    markcs Karting

    Oct 23, 2016
    141
    Average klms per year in Oz is around 20000klms
    Ferrari average klms/year in Oz is probably less than 1000
    supercars aren't the problem
    GPF filters ?????
     
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