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Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by ajr550, Feb 28, 2019.
Both are correct. There are two pieces of regulation. The Euro, V, VI, VIc, VId(temp) etc. These are hurdles that have to be cleared, otherwise you cannot sell. In addition there is the CAFE legislation that is a harder test but uses fines rather than ‘stop sale’. These charge €95 per gram over a manufacturer’s designated fleet average. Ferrari could survive this but it makes them inefficient against the competition so they don’t really want to do it I would guess. Some parts of the world will soon mandate electricity too so Ferrari cannot ignore the way the world is going.
On par with Ferr or not, nobody can say to have seen, heard, let alone driven, the Little Brother V6 which is still a couple of years away (or claim to have driven the BB, that's simply unrealistic unless you're De Simone or another Ferrari tester driving around Fiorano Modenese).
On the topic of sound, it's totally debatable. Some like the sound of a 488, some don't. Some prefer Ferrari's V12s, others prefer the engine note of a Lamborghini Aventador. There are no facts there, just different tastes and opinions. The same obviously goes for beauty (see 458 vs 488 or F12 vs 812, anyone can have a different opinion).
However, if we're talking about soul, then that's about the driving emotions a car can give and you have to drive it before making any statement whatsoever (hybrid or not, turbo or N/A, "heavy" or not). Other than that, technology moves forward, always did and always will. Other manufacturers will embrace hybrid tech, just like Ferrari on their V8s and V6s, some will turbocharge more models in the future (Porsche and the next-gen GT3). There's no point in arguing about that. If you get stuck in the past, you're dead, there's no way out unless you're a small manufacturer, living in your bubble with a niche clientele.
That sounds like Mr. Ruf except he to can't keep up with the demand!
This is very true, honestly sound and feeling is all debatable. Everyone has their own tastes and definition of excitement and soul. Some people love the instant feeling of electric cars and some love pre-war cars. Everyone is different.
As I wrote in another thread:
There were line between electronics and cars industry up to some point.
Now the line is disappearing.
Before iphone and full screen apps phones were not smart but fun with choices of whos design is better in hand.
Now, all phones have same sources for screen, chips, and OS.
Cars are becoming phones. Later, like phones today, cars might have same sources for battery, motor and control unit to run.
Only seats, leather and interface might be different like todays phone with small differences.
Hopely Ferrari should be what Apple is to phone at least. Anyway, I will buy as many v12 Ferraris I can for now..
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Precisely. Everyone can have different tastes and preferences, even in terms of handling/performance, but each car needs to be tried first in order to judge it properly.
Yeah, phones back in the day used to have different designs, just like cars today. Then they started to look more and more the same as the screens ate up more front surface, to the point where even the physical center buttons disappeared. And speaking of components, manufacturers already have dozens of partners that help them build their cars (Magneti Marelli, Bosch, Brembo, IHI, Lasim, Magna, OMR, Foglizzo etc. etc.). Companies that supply batteries, motors and all the other electrical components for the hybrid powertrains will just take up a few more lines in Ferrari's (and others) partners' lists. Fortunately our beloved brand builds their own engines, no worries there!
Hasn't that happened before ? I recall 348 weren't sold in the USA ?
Well we are getting the F8 , and I guess no GPF At last a win !
A big win and maybe for all of use non-conforming countries (i.e. not currently requiring GPF devices)
Given that Porsche cannot make GPF work in Australia and others simply will not make non-GPF cars for Australia, a very big win!
For other car-makers such as Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen, the protocol changes have forced a drastic downsizing of their model line-ups, effectively because Australia’s high sulphur petrol means we are stuck in the old NEDC test cycle process. For many manufacturers, the process of testing cars against both measures – and removing their particulate filters to cope with poor Australian petrol – is considered a logistical nightmare and financially untenable.
However, Porsche sees it differently.
“At the moment, we continue to bring cars to Australia based on Australian regulations,” said Porsche Cars Australia’s head of public relations, Chris Jordan. “We’re homologating using the NEDC numbers and without a gasoline particulate filter.
Australian regulations allow up to 50 parts per million of sulphur in our unleaded petrol, but in Europe the maximum sulphur content is just 10ppm.
The T-Roc R engine has only been calibrated to meet European fuel requirements. Given the engineering time and cost to recalibrate engines for different markets around the world, the T-Roc R is one of the casualties.
Still, at least it’s slightly thriftier than the engine it replaces. While the Macan comes with a gasoline particulate filter (GPF) in Europe, it’s not being fitted to cars sold in Australia for now.
Great comment from link above:
Petrol to the specifications of most European countries would be BANNED in Australia on environmental grounds. It cannot be sold here.
It's got nothing to do with sulfur levels (other than the refinery hydrogenation process to remove sulfur lowers natural octane levels), its because of the standard European use of MTBE as an octane enhancer.
MTBE is banned in Australia because if it escapes into groundwater systems, it makes the water unpalatable at parts per trillion levels (not toxic but undrinkable). The risk is more in the country where there are old leaky underground tanks rather than in spanking new double-lined tanks in most city facilities.
Future Australia 10ppm S PULP95/98 fuel will be a completely different blend to the 10 ppm S PULP95/98 blends found in the EU and most other developed countries.
Our future fuel will have a different and likely more expensive octane enhancer. Hence Australian blend fuel will be more expensive to refine than Euro spec fuels.
My understanding is that the only thing cheaper than MTBE (& ETBE) is ethanol. However while obviously not banned, ethanol is arguably a greater environmental risk than MTBE. This is because it acts as a carrier for carcinogenic aromatic hydrocarbons in groundwater systems. I would be happy to see E10 fuel banned.
The most recent victim is Range Rover, which has introduced mild-hybrid technology (MHEV) on its petrol-powered Evoque rangeinternationally, but is unable to introduce it here because the technology requires a petrol particulate filter (PPF) that won't accept our poor-quality fuel.
..."These are manufactured with particulate filters designed to run on European quality petrol, which contains less than 10 parts per million of sulphur. Petrol in Australia contains up to 150ppm, the worst quality among OECD nations, rendering engines with petrol particulate filters non-starters for this market. Even premium unleaded can contain up to 50ppm.
"We’re becoming outsiders," Bartsch argued, in a long-winded conversation about local fuel standards. "It won’t be long before vehicles are going to have to be produced purely for these really poor sulphur content countries," he said.
and, this for EU..
First of all this thread is getting off topic...I haven’t read anything related to BB for days...Second, while I agree with the Fchat member that laments the introduction of electric assistance and the noise restrictions, I think we are a dying breed. There is a growing crowd of Ferrari buyers that are either
(1) attracted to cost-free ownership that comes with exclusivity. Once you tell them that their expensive car will depreciate like any other vehicle -or the current limited edition bubble bursts- they will be gone. Which brings about an endless series of limited production, limited time-production, limited colour production models, so that everyone can own a slice of exclusivity.
(2) attracted to the concept of buying the coolest, hottest car out there (and able to do so), but couldn’t care less what is under the bonnet or how much it weighs. It is the same people that buy 250 Lussos for 1.5-2 million and then bring them back to the dealers a couple of weeks later complaining that they drive like trucks (I know of 2 such cases just in the last year). It is the same people that consider the Urus a descendant of the Countach and the Continental GT a descendant of the R-type Continental.
Ferrari do make an old school supercar: it is the 812 and they also make a car that represents many of the old Ferrari values: the SP1/SP2. Yet check out other threads here to see the balance between people discussing how this beauty will feel & drive and people discussing how it will fare in the second hand market. It is 20:80.
Personally I think Ferrari is doing exactly what any manufacturer who owns the greatest brand in the world would do: they are moving forward with the times, making cars that appeal to the buyers of today and tomorrow -regardless of the nature of that appeal- and growing their production potential to ensure they can keep up with the rising costs of regulatory compliance. At the same time they make series like Icona that remind those few who care why Ferrari became the greatest car manufacturer of all: because they make the most beautiful, emotional cars with the most charismatic engines for people who know how to appreciate them.
I must say I enjoy both aspects: I drive my Portofino every day, in any conditions (incl snow) when I would never consider doing that with my 512BB or my Dino without a good mechanic on call. At the same time I can’t wait to drive the SP2 on a mountain pass, even though I know I will have to pick sunny days only and I will probably come back with my head buzzing from the wind and the insects that will hit it due to its lack of windscreen! Ferrari haven’t diminished their appeal; they have broadened it.
I think the BB will be a phenomenal car, a new benchmark for Ferrari and I for one can’t wait for May 29th.
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it s funny that some of us mourning for the fear of lossing old school ferrari experiences and at the same time attacking the monza sp1/sp2's for being old school ; complaining about their lack of modern safety requirements and not having windshields. some fear stone will hit them or their head would get smashed by a flying wheel! I have watched videos on internet, where people were hit by stray wheels while peacefully walking on the street !
Old Ferrari is the great past; new Ferrari will be greater, at least in the numbers, time will tell.
Plus ca change,plus c'est la meme chose
A more Italian adage is "everything must change to stay the same".
And now, where is the ****ing car?
Just got the invite for 30th May.
Wife needs me to host an important lunch with her in London that day.Cancelling lunch is not an option.
How do I leave lunch in London at 2.30pm and get to Maranello for the launch ?
Flight times that I can find do not seem to work.
All suggestions gratefully received.
Hologram with wife.
On a serious note are Bologna and Parma only realistic airport options ?
- Fly between London & Milan for $7,345 (€6,500 ) (probably can change that to BLQ)
Just realised it starts at 3pm UK time so no chance.Will have to decline.
Milano, then rent a car and drive (~3 hours)
or from Malpensa
a bit farther:
Time to get out the clone to fill in for that luncheon with your wife!
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