I believe he said no service records for the Mondi & Testa. The 308 did have some sort of service records.
After seeing what the QV sold for I'm taking my 328 there next year. I should make at least $10K profit! I'm kidding but that seems like a ridiculous price for that car. Being a Euro car hurts it's value for resale for sure. Doesn't the buyer pay 10% on top of that? $62K for a 21K miles euro car? I don't care how clean it is, that's way too much. I would have thought the fact the Ferrari's were lost in the crowd of muscle cars they would have gone much cheaper. The car did look real nice, though, but TV is much different than live. I hope he really enjoys the car. He could have got a real nice lower mileage 328 for that price with a PPI to boot. Jeff
The buyer pays the 10 percent premium? So the guy that bought the shelby that looked like a thousand other shelby cobras for five million paid 500k in premiums? *laugh turns to cackle*
800k if Reggie Jacksons sweat was in it. That and it's a really bland white one with the COPA name attached to it. Oh yeah... a Reggie Jackson signed baseball bat too!
It is interesting to see the 308 sell for more than the TR. I think it speaks to both the cost-of-ownership reputation of the TR and the ongoing fame of the 308. It's hard to use B-J auction results as a real guide to the market, but it will be interesting to see how the broader market goes this spring. I think the days of the bargain, low-mileage 308 are numbered.
I have long thought the 308s as being undervalued for many years. I have no plans to sell my 308, but I'd be happy to see it worth $60-$70k in 5 years.
Unreal this BJ stuff....can you even do a PPI on these cars or just peak inteh windows and maybe just start them up.....Reggie Jackson looked so damn bored being there. I though ebay was crazy but I don't get these muscle car - BJ auctions.. they are selling retro-mods and recreations and plain vanilla camaro and plymouth for 100's I thought the russian boat was cool but I watch that BJ show allteh time ( even in reruns) for entertainmetn and figure some guys have more money than brains...when it comes to bidding on these cars. just imagine if a magnum 308 ever hits the BJ block, all hell would break loose, someone out there is sitting on a lottery ticket and let's hope for a change it does not turn out to be Mike Sheehan again! he should let the grunts win one once in a while!
Over the last 4-5 years I've watched Ferrari's sell at BJ, they typically don't fetch much money compared to the $$ being asked for on the regular market. The $52.5K price for the 308 was far higher than I predicted. There was a '55/'56 Porsche 356 spyder on Saturday that sold for $90K where the seller had purchased the car a year earlier at BJ for $130K. Yeah...he got screwed.
I typically would never use the BJ pricing as a guideline because they are usually insane prices paid, but in the same respect, it is interesting to see the 308 go for $52.5K. It will be interesting to see how 308's do at other similar auctions. I agree that the days of seeing nice 308's at "bargain" prices could soon come to a close.
A Duesenburg was an extremely expensive car new and set new standards in it's day. It makes sense that it would remain desirable, but a mustang, camaro, cuda with a an option package bringing nearly the same price?...to me that's insane. I think 308s have been under priced for some time and that is beginning to change and the 348/355s are becoming bargins and will be for the next 10 years.
Speedster? I want a convertible 356, and just had a Convertible D '59 offered to me at $90K+. I get the sense it's a stupid time to buy - the horse left the barn a while ago. I would say 308s aren't classics yet, but still a much smarter buy right now - in part because the experts only invest in Ferraris after they're already rare and expensive.
You have to understand that these option packages were also extremely expensive and very rare. The ZL1 option was more than the cost of the Corvette or Camaro it went into...and was generally only available to known racers. There were more Duesy Js than COPO Camaros (COPO meant a central office order ..the only way to get a factory 427 in the F body.) As Ferrari guys it is very easy to be insulated from the importance of some of these muscle and pony car options. Just like Ferraris, Camaro Z28 and Boss 302s were designed specifically for racing. The SCCA trans am series was very popular. The Hemi engine was the most successful engine for both drag racing and for a while in NASCAR. Don't get me wrong- I generally don't get very hot over driving muscle and pony cars, but their values do make as much sense as any other trend. Okay...I did love driving a '68 GT350 supercharged car for my column...it was wild and very much like driving an f-car! So these collectors are bidding on performance and racing success.
I guess the way I look at it is that although it's a rare option from the factory, you can get a factory 427 and drop it in yourself for $10k. Neither the car non the engine are rare...the factory just had more sense than to sell the combination to the general public because it wasn't safe to drive. To me, that does not make a classic, it makes a race car with no race history, which isn't particularly valuable. Now tell me it is THE car that won x championship and its documented as such, well then its a special car that should being a special price. A duesenburg J was something like $25000 in the 20's, that is a LOT of money and is something like $1M in todays dollars. Im certainly no expert, but my understanding is that duesenburg built the chassis and then the coachwork was custom to the buyers specifications, so no 2 are alike. I understand a duesenberg selling for $600k.
Ahhh, I always said to myself that I will continue to lurk until I feel that I can contribute to a thread. Here I go. I agree with m ke, why pay a few hundred grand for a COPO Camaro, when you can buy a small block car and drop in a 427ci, and not be afraid to drive it. When BJ started years ago it was mostly high end classics (Duesys, RRs, lots of Fcars etc). As soon as Craig Jackson became involved, thats when the American muscle cars became more of a fixture. He appealed to the masses, which is what most people want in a collector car. Prices will come down, most of the buyers are in their 40's, they were too young to buy muscle cars new but owned them in the late 70s early 80s. They were just used cars back then that could be purcahsed cheap. They bought them, drove the **** out of them, and then sold them. Men who are in their late fifties owned the cars new, and most can't justify the prices. 10-15 years ago prices of the 50s cars soared because of the age of the buyers. The only reason cars built in the 20s - 50s are going up is because the prices of muscle cars are sucking up the values of the older cars. A instant classic like a 57 Eldorado or 567 Tbird seems like a steal compared to what muscle cars are bringing. I am in my early 30s and I do appreciate all types of cars and have owned many different types (no F cars YET). Kids that are 10 to 20 yrs old are not going to pay insane prices for muscle cars when they are in their 30s or 40s. They will appreciate and admire and probably purchase them, but will not spend the money that is being spent now. When these current buyers age and eventually have more important things to worry about, the market will become flooded with old muscle cars. The only buyers left we be the this younger generation which will more than likely have more important things to spend their $$$$ on. Barret Jackson is nothing more than a bunch of very wealthy people having a little fun. No different than spending $900 on Versace jeans or $3000 on a chess set. To most people its unfathomable (sp ?) to the filthy rich, its just another weekend. Finally, since this is my 1st post I would like to say I love the forum, will be buying an F car sooner than later, and I'm looking forward to lurking for another few months before my next post. JEFF
Well after looking at the QV pic posted on the BJ website I am reminded of just how beautiful a car the 308 is/was. Here in Maine we are deep in winter and my '84 QV is in storage and I haven't seen it since November. I still believe it beats the "modern" Ferrari's in looks and design. Can wait for spring...
Jeff and MK E Very good points, but it's the difference between having a Ferrari 365GT/4 Spider or a C4 converted to a Spider clone (or a GTE converted to California.) Real is real, and clone is clone. You'll notice that some of the clones were selling for six-figures. In most cases, there's more than just a simple engine swap. Some cars have different frames, suspensions etc...A hi-po 396 Chevelle SS coupe had a convertible frame! And I agree that race history is important. This is why certain D-Types sell for $2M and others for $850K. The same can be said for 250GT F-cars. Not all of a certain model were raced, but the sheer fact that the model was successful IN racing makes all the similar configurations more desirable. Hemi cars were very successful in drag racing and in NASCAR. COPO Camaros were drag race champions, while Z28s were Trans Am winners. Most importantly, almost every night-time street drag person feared a Hemi car with an owner wealthy and dedicated enough to keep it in tune. Jeff, if you look back just two years ago, 50's cars were still going very, very strong. Tri-five Chevys are still as high as they've ever been. E-Code (and F-Code) T-birds are still huge. This is beyond just Barrett-Jackson. Barrett-Jackson is an anomoly. It illustrates trends, but the hammer prices are certainly not what it would cost you on the other 359-ish days of the year. That being said, certainly a car could come back in five years and sell for less, but that is less indicative of the trend, more of the number of motivated buyers in the room at that time. Again, I think anyone would be hard-pressed to indicate one group of cars that saw significant decrease in value as the first collector ownership demographic aged. (And to reiterate, this excludes the 1980s European speculation that sent 308s to 150,000 when new and built a deck of cards out of the whole collector market for a couple years.) But as we've seen Brass-era car values have not only survived three generations of classic ownership, but values are again skyrocketing (check out Mercer, Simplex, Stutz values as of late!) Classic-era has two generations, 50s are basically one-and-a-half. Muscle cars will survive without declining, as well, because the twenty and thirty-somethings know how much their dads paid for the cars. As a side note -- Duesenbergs were generally ordered as a chassis and engine and delivered to a coachbuilder (like Murphy, LeBaron, LeGrande, Rollston.) There were Js delivered with "standard" coachwork, and a friend of mine has one -- it's a nice sedan. Generally, the cost for a completed Duesenberg J was in the area of $15,000, but some were more expensive (such as the 20-Grand Duesenberg in the Nethercutt Museum.) Most coachbuilders had standard offerings, so not only were many Duesenbergs similar, some Duesenbergs were nearly indentical-looking to other cars of other manufacturers with bodywork by the same coach builder. You'd be hard-pressed to tell the manufacturer underneath a Murphy Roadster without looking at the radiator mascot! And by the way, many, many, many Classic-era cars used custom coachwork, including Bentley, Rolls, Cord L-29, Cadillac, Lincoln, Chrysler, Marmon, Isotta Franchini, Hispano Suiza, Mercedes, Maybach, Horsch, Bugatti, Packard, Talbot Lago, Delahaye, Delage...even Ford! I know it's very easy to say "prices have to fall" on these muscle cars. But history simply doesn't support that this will happen. The cars that have been desirable over the course of generations have never really fallen. We need to keep in mind that most of the collectors are as savvy about Mopars, Fords and Chevys as we are about F-cars. Sure, there are people who throw too much money at a car that doesn't deserve it (like a six-figure clone,) but this is the exception, not the rule in determining the overall market. After all, how many people on this forum paid too much for a Mondial or 308GT4 with timing belts hanging by one frayed piece of rubber? Sadly, there are a few. Sometimes it's bad judgment, other times, just bad luck. The same is true of the muscle car guys. Personally, I prefer driving european sports cars and Classics, but I understand WHY people pay crazy money for rare muscle cars...(I've also owned plenty of Corvettes, and drove my kids home from school in a big block (albeit low-buck) Mopar convertible today) It all does make sense. There is definite rhyme and reason. As for the B-J premium -- it simply happens because people can buy what they want easily and on national tv. In my years as a collector car journalist, the hardest thing to do is to remove personal emotion from how I view a car or group of collector cars. When we look at collector vehicles analytically, there is much more in common than one might expect between seemingly opposite parts of the hobby. Cheers, Sam
With the Euro rising in value relative teh the USD, shouldn't the europeans be swooping in soon and grabbing up all these very cheap european perfomrnce exotics and driving up the market a bit? I wonder what the european enthusiast's think about the prices we yanks are paying for these muscle cars that they must think are simply boulevard cruisers.
Interestingly enough, muscle and pony cars are very popular among european collectors. They are quite rare...plus high performance by average commuter car standards. A friend of mine took the Olympia Charger to Le Mans Classic last summer. The car was treated like a rock star. His co-hort in driving was an editor for a French car mag. Christophe himself has raced a Mustang in Europe for years. No doubt, though, that european cars will raise in value. Much of it is simply time...that 30 year mark.
