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Nice ride, so this may cause considerable offence... Stanceworks 308 GTBi (Honda K24 Swap)

Discussion in '308/328' started by JC Andruet, Jan 2, 2021.

  1. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    I unquestionably find enjoyment in the controversy that stems from what I choose to do. That's a massive difference from suggesting that I am a "hack," "have no respect for the brand" or that I am "only using a 308 shell to stoke Ferrari hate and garner YouTube revenue."

    I may not know you very well. You clearly do not know me. Instead, members here take their distaste for what I am doing (which is fair) and turn it into personal attacks, assumptions, and more.
     
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  3. Brian A

    Brian A Formula 3

    Dec 21, 2012
    2,355
    SanFrancisco BayArea
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    1983 US 308 GTS QV
    Well, enjoy your project then. It IS cool.

    Just don’t expect approval either from the internet. Its a wild place.
     
  4. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
    1,164
    California SF area
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Okay hold on, you toss in that "(which is fair)" to kind of subdue your own "attacks" and you openly gush at our distaste for your hacking up a pretty nice GTB - which you clearly expected. You ended up with a crap K24 and the Ferrari community is small. Maybe you couldn't get that goldmine from the F106?

    Try being nice.
     
  5. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    I don't expect approval, and don't mind disapproval. :) I still can't fathom how some people can't separate that from ad hominem attacks. To each their own though.
     
  6. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    I haven't been rude nor unpleasant to anyone that hasn't been that way to me before ever exchanging a word with me. Two members in this thread have met me face to face since this thread was started and I think they'll probably vouch at this point, I'm not a rude person. I
    I'm not worried about what I get for the engine. Ideally, it'll go to someone that needs it and it can put another car back on the road. If you want to be upset about that, that's your problem, not mine.
     
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  8. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
    1,164
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    Paul
    You're the one walking around with a GoPro pointed at yourself so don't give me that ad hominem thing, you asked for it. You wanna be judged? Here it is. But it's not personal it's just virtual./ I could totally drink a craft beer with you.
     
  9. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    :p Okay bud. If that's how it's gotta be, so be it.
     
  10. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
    1,164
    California SF area
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    Paul
    Lagunitas or Racer 5? I'm guessing' Racer 5.
     
  11. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    C'mon now, there's only one answer. It even talks about us on the cap.
     
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  13. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    Paul
    LOL you got me I give up
     
  14. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,711
    FRANCE
    Paul,

    A standard "euro" carbed 308 GTB, with fuel tanks empty, on the scales is "about 1260 to 1265 kilos", which is 2.780 lbs to 2.790 lbs.
    Remember there were, on this very forum a few years ago, a number of measurements done between the steel and glass cars, to find their exact weight, and the difference in weight between the two.

    Rgds
     
  15. JC Andruet

    JC Andruet Karting

    Jan 16, 2013
    128
    As I said previously, a K24 bored out to 2.5, or bored and stroked to 2.7, primarily to bolster the low end/midrange torque (though some clever manipulation of the VTEC system alone would improve matters from that perspective) capable of revving to 8,500-9,000rpm and producing 360-400hp, in a well modified (specifically suspension, brakes and steering) 308 chassis, would make for a very quick street car, whose weight could easily be reduced to below 1100kgs if Mike's 308 engine/ancillaries and transmission weights are accurate.

    IF, and I stress if, you wanted to modernise the 308 into a quick, usable, reliable and cost effective street car, that could hold it's own when pitted against far more modern cars, the K24 powertrain makes a lot of sense. Sure, it won't appeal to the vast majority on here, and it won't win any prizes for originality, but I suspect that wouldn't be at the top of anyone's concerns if they were undertaking such a project ...

    I questioned in an earlier post on this thread what the usual suspects would charge to build a 3.5/3.6/4.0 liter 308 motor producing a streetable 360-400hp.
    No doubt it would depend on the base motor, specifically whether it was a 2 valve or 4 valve item, but any guesstimates as to what such a motor would cost ? $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 ?
     
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  16. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 12, 2005
    12,869
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    Tom Spiro
    Its the achilies heel of all the 80's super cars... I've only driven a 288 in a parking lot ... and it was massively hard to steer the car... and the F40 is great when going quick, but once you load it up under braking - it gets heavy. I know 308's very well, and they are good when moving but with more power you will have to really be working the wheel to make it handle ... massive understeer ... till it does not .. and then its Oversteer... bad. a faster rack or faster return to center is needed.
     
  17. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    Now we're having some good discussion!
    If I weren't building the car to race, I'd probably go the route you are talking about. I think that 350ish WHP mark would be a riot in the 308 as a street car, and the weight benefits would seal the deal. Obviously not something that most 308 owners would be keen on, but on paper, I think the math checks out.

    I'd be curious about the numbers on an engine build, like you've asked. Plenty of folks have suggested to build the engine similar to the above, as it's possible to get 400HP NA out of them... but what's the true cost to do it, and to do it well? I'm asking genuinely, as I have no idea. I would also assume somewhere between $30-50,000 if we're talking top quality, new parts, good work, etc.

    For contrast, a ~350whp K24 can be built from the bottom up, along with Kinsler ITBs and all the fixins, for a smidge over $10k. I don't think I will have to exceed that by all to much to have a turbo engine capable of 1,000hp, aside from the cost of dry sump, if I have to go that route. Not necessary for the power level, solely for fitment.

    Good to know. I appreciate the insight!
     
  18. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Project Master Owner

    May 10, 2006
    16,202
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    It's man

    It's not nearly as much as you'd think actually, especially with you doing the work. I did this with my carbureted 308 and it put down 276bhp at the wheels on a dynojet, which is somewhere around 320-330bhp at crank. Street driveable, LOTS of torque. A 360 crankshaft is around $2-$2500 these days. Custom pistons $1500ish, Cat Cams (they're in Belgium) $1800ish valve springs for new cams for high lift $200ish.

    Other than that it's standard rebuild stuff. Main and rod bearings are somewhat reasonable as are gaskets these days. Clean everything and have the crank polished. Head work is usually the only machine work necessary with these, just cutting new seats and refacing the valves (replace valves too if ya want). Definitely less than $2000 in all this stuff. Call it $8-$9k all-in with you doing the work. I forgot, carb manifolds are around, not terrible either. I know of several and get you in touch with the right party.

    Ignition was Electromotive, the one non stock looking item.

    In the end, I replaced my US bumpers with Euro stuff, dumped all the emissions crap and landed at just over 2800lbs with about 1/3 tank of gas. The car went well and looked entirely stock.
     
  19. JC Andruet

    JC Andruet Karting

    Jan 16, 2013
    128
    That sounds good a good mix of weight reduction and increased horsepower !! I imagine if you started out with a QV, the the 4 valve heads would flow better than the 2 valve carb or injection items ? I seem to recall reading on here that if you were going for an increase in bore as well as stroke, there was a lot made about replacement liners (and specifically using a decent torque plate whilst boring out the block assembly to accept the replacement liners ? or boring the new liners to ensure they were true once the heads were finally fitted and torqued down ?) Smoke and mirrors ? or process that's genuinely needed to ensure problem free running and longevity with oversize liners ?

    I heard that good, used 360 cranks are getting harder to source ? The cost of this one would tend to bear that out :

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/crankshaft-Ferrari-360-Spider-Modena-Challenge-3-6-178481-F-131-B40/383702837985?hash=item595678aae1:g:Gb0AAOSwmKdfT2aa
     
  20. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Project Master Owner

    May 10, 2006
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    It's man
    QV engines makes the process more difficult as one would almost have to then go EFI. Cams are a lot more costly and that engine will get super hot. QV engines always had overheating issues, cranking serious power from one just exacerbates the condition. The issue was only corrected in the 328 which canted a larger radiator forward and moved the a/c condenser to in front of a wheel well.

    Some have replaced bored the block at great expense and replaced with larger liners to 85mm or so. Stock liners can be bored to 83mm max, which is what I did. I don't see huge benefit going too much larger on the bores, especially with the costs involved.

    Depends on where you look for a 360 crank. They are available though.
     
  21. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
    1,164
    California SF area
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    Paul
    Granted, I'm an old man so my perspective might be different but for me the stock 308 is already all of those things. It's a gloriously attractive GT sports car and I can do 100 mph all day on the poorly engineered and undulating back roads up in the foothills and canyons around here in supple, air conditioned comfort. 308's only break down when you leave them parked and unused for months or years on end. Drive it hard and often, it will be reliable. Mr Burroughs is building a race car and one to do a specific task - go around a groomed track with a lap time hopefully quicker than his competitors and with what's left of the 308 shell when he gets done with it he's gonna look hella cool doing it but for normal street use it probably won't be so great. To make a great race car you gotta give up a lot of stuff that makes a good street car comfortable. It's a compromise.
     
  22. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2013
    1,010
    Tulsa, OK
    I just don’t think street cars make very good race cars without an exhausting amount of changes. Better off buying a used 911 Cup car in my opinion. It will do everything better, be more reliable and still look good. Heck you probably could have bought one for less than you paid for the gtb.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  23. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Feb 24, 2006
    14,215
    Cerritos, CA.
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    Mike
    Hey Mike, don’t be surprise if one day or night while you’re driving or racing the GTB, you’ll see Enzos ghost next to you or on your rearview mirror. He’s probably rolling over his grave right now.
     
  24. JC Andruet

    JC Andruet Karting

    Jan 16, 2013
    128
  25. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    You're not wrong, but I don't want a 911. I want a 308! It's not always solely about what makes the most logical sense on paper. If I really wanted to go fast this isn't a good car to choose. It's more rooted in I want to go fast in a 308.
     
  26. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    10,711
    FRANCE
    Well, your dream already exists, but will cost a few bucks: one of the fifteen "Michelottos". Hundred per cent Ferrari 308, all original and period correct. No need for this ugly thing called a "Turbo", a glorious Naturally-Aspired engine: depending on whether it is a two-valve or four-valve, 300 to 330 hp (some say the four valve can be easily pushed to 375-380) weight circa 2.100 to 2.150 lbs (about 980 kgs), and they have been proved in race.

    Rgds
     
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  27. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2013
    1,010
    Tulsa, OK
    Maybe I won’t understand until I see the finished product. It just seems like the stated love for the 308 design is contrary to the goal of a high downforce race car. The delicate nose of a 308 will need to be blunted, lowered, with a large splitter. The rear dwarfed by a wing above and a diffuser below. Race cars are function first, elegance is an unintended consequence. To me the lines that attracted you to the car in the first place are then lost.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  28. Brian A

    Brian A Formula 3

    Dec 21, 2012
    2,355
    SanFrancisco BayArea
    Full Name:
    1983 US 308 GTS QV
    Hutch took a lot of flack when he first started posting about his Tesla motor based 308 project. People came around eventually. I suppose a difference is that he started with a gutted engine-fire salvage car.

    You might find Sp1der's thread regarding his Michelotto replica car useful for frame reinforcement, engine cooling, etc. Here is a link: Michelotto 308 build | FerrariChat

    A genuine Michelotto is unobtanium. As Nerofer says, there were only 15 built. Your car is quite rare too: only 474 were built.
     

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