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Nice ride, so this may cause considerable offence... Stanceworks 308 GTBi (Honda K24 Swap)

Discussion in '308/328' started by JC Andruet, Jan 2, 2021.

  1. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    That's where subjectivity comes in. I think "blunted, lowered, with a large splitter, and a wing above and diffuser below" will look fantastic. It's outright what I want. I want to begin with a 308, add these elements, and make it fast, reliably, and relatively affordably. Easy peasy.
     
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  3. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    Well this was Ferrari's attempt and it didn't turn out so bad :)

     
  4. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    No doubt about it. But at $3,000,000, I'm a few pennies shy of affording one. It's also not quite what I am trying to build. To be clear, I genuinely don't think many of you are going to be fond of my aesthetic choices. It won't be a GTO clone.
     
  5. kiwiokie

    kiwiokie Formula 3

    Aug 19, 2013
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    I believe that is a street gto tuned to group B spec. This is what the race version of the street car would look like. Not pretty IMO but likely much faster.

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    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  6. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
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    I too love the 308 looks and thought I understood your reasons for wanting to do all of this work (and race) in that lovely and iconic shape. But now you say “I genuinely don't think many of you are going to be fond of my aesthetic choices.” which confuses me.

    If you can afford to, keep the original engine. You may intend to never sell the car but things change and having that engine with the car may be more valuable if you sell.
     
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  8. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    I can afford it, but I have no interest in keeping it. I will be making other not-easily-reversible changes to the car that will harm the value as well. Value isn't a concern.
     
  9. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
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    Not sure what kind of racing - but road racing in a 308 with lots of power = complete suspension set up ... they need lots of neg. camber in the back and you have to really look at Castor adjustment in the front.. I've been in some raced out 308's that back in the day would eat 355 -430's alive... road cars... but this 308 was like a micheloto but on steroids. Huffacker build 308's for SCCA and IMSA.. they still had a 308 engine at about 400HP... megaphone exhaust dry sump, etc... totally ripped out interior no idea on the weight but it had / has a full cage, etc.. it was mega fast. and loud. so while light and more power is good... a stock 308 suspension will handle the power, but its not going to feel good.. .way too much lean. so if its racing - i'd ditch the electric steering - and go for a complete new suspension set up ( up front ) keep forgetting you are using a honda engine - was going to say if you remove the spare and that entire area you can fit a huge radiator with puller fans also in the front by the brake booster, there is about 20 - 30 lbs that can be lost as well. evap coil, dryer, Ac lines etc...
     
  10. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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  11. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    "Not so much better other than cheaper."

    It's this mindset that's frustrating. I don't care if you don't like it, but just own that part of it. It's okay to say "I just wish it wasn't a Honda engine from an economy car" and we'd all probably be on the same page, because I understand that sentiment.

    But when you try to state things objectively and in absolutes, it just hurts your argument... because objectively, it's literally better in almost every way. The only points left for discussion are largely subjective ones, aside from the discussion of what it does to the value of the car... and even then, that's conjecture until the moment I sell it.

    The engine is lighter. The engine has a vastly higher power ceiling. The engine is significantly cheaper to build and to maintain. The engine will improve the dynamics of the car. The engine is more efficient. The engine is easier to work on, easier to remove, and easier to rebuild. The engine has far more aftermarket support and development. The engine is newer and more advanced. The engine is more reliable.

    You don't have to like it. But own it. Be the Ferrari nerd I know you are, because it's okay to be that person. It's what I and everyone else expects from members of this forum. Wear it with a badge of honor.

    Don't, however, try to argue that what I am doing isn't objectively better from any technical and performance perspective. It may not be as "pure" and it may hurt the value (I'll argue otherwise, but to each their own), but it's absolutely an improvement over the anemic, sleepy, 202hp boat anchor I removed.
     
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  13. MFlanagan

    MFlanagan Karting

    Dec 21, 2016
    88
    I'd be happy to accept that "anemic, sleepy, 202hp boat anchor" as a gift. I'd be happy to come get it whenever you'd like.
     
  14. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Pretty much nothing in this post is actually true and I'm sure you know that.
    That engine is newer, that's true.
    The engine is lighter, also true, but that because its smaller (and less powerful).
    The engine is cheaper buy and rebuild (probably, ...the engine is undersized so it needs to be run in a much higher state of tune which gets expensive fast).

    As for liking it, I personally don't much care one way or the other. It sounds more like you're trying to convince yourself as my opinion has basically no relevance because it ain't my car. I posted the smaller x1/9 conversion because it is an Italian sports car more appropriate for an engine that size and as a result you will almost certainly never catch a setup like that once you hit the track on your current path. On a high speed oval where weight doesn't matter a lot you'll be fine, but any track that requires acel/decel....that'll be tough unless you turn the boost up to hand grenade levels.

    A modern V6, 280hp stock for honda if that's your preference, could be run bone stock and actually give you all the things you're thinking you want from the k24. Or a more modern factory turbo 4 but that leaves you much less up side HP on a budget at least. Either way, bolt it in and race, then bolt in a new one in a season or 2 when its tired. Once you start talking about building engines, they're all expensive and get increasing unreliable as hp/l demands go up....hence the adage "there's no replacement for displacement".
     
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  15. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
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    its the guys car - let him do what he wants with it. I don't have the skill set to do 1/85th of what he's doing so its interesting. would I buy it - no, & would I want to do the same thing - no,but its still an oddity, and interesting.

    back in the 50's 60's it was common to replace a worn engine from a Ferrari - or any foreign car with a chevy... i just see this as a modern version. the expense and care of a 2v injected 308 - we all know does not make sense... you do it for the love of the car. the only thing that hurts me - is its a gtb - which are fairly rare vs. the gts.... but the gtb is far better race platform.
     
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  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    If he's going to race it, I'd like to he him win....that will be very difficult on the path he's on was my only point. Years ago I insisted on road racing a Harley and it was possible, after hundreds of hours modifying literally everything. The only thing left of the frame was a 3" long section from the neck with the VIN number on it, that level of modification. It's a fate I would wish on no one and fear that's where he's headed as the result of 1 questionable choice at the project start....much like my V12, terrible idea.
     
  17. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71

    .... What? Literally everything I posted is inarguably factual. The engine is more powerful. The 2.9L V8 is rated at 202hp from Ferrari. The K24 in bone stock trim is rated for 205. Your comments about "undersized... thus needing a tune" are absurd.

    You do know that the adage "there's no replacement for displacement" has been amended, right? Because there is. It's called positive manifold pressure, and even Ferrari saw this for the very same engine you are praising. You address displacement like there's a major discrepancy between a 2.4 liter and a 2.9. You're proving my point about "the mindset." You're so blinded by reverence for something that you can't approach it factually and objectively.

    The engine is lighter. The engine has a vastly higher power ceiling. The engine is significantly cheaper to build and to maintain. The engine will improve the dynamics of the car. The engine is more efficient. The engine is easier to work on, easier to remove, and easier to rebuild. The engine has far more aftermarket support and development. The engine is newer and more advanced. The engine is more reliable.

    Not a single one of these is refutable. "Pretty much nothing in that post is actually true" and you couldn't even break any of it down...

    And of ALL people, I know YOU should know better, seeing what you've done in the past. What a shame.

    :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
  18. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    I'm not concerned about winning. I'm not concerned about value. I'm not concerned about anything but fun. Cars are supposed to be fun. You know this. You shoved a V12 into your car for fun.
     
  19. JasonS

    JasonS Karting

    Sep 5, 2019
    55
    Green, OH
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    Jason Stropki
    Just one more opinion on a forum: while I have zero interest in a Ferrari 308 with a Honda engine, I am subscribed and will continue to watch Mr. Burroughs project that he is sharing with us. Why? Because there are "talkers", and there are "do-ers", and I much prefer watching a builder/fabricator "do-er" do his or her thing even if it's different than what I would do. I also think there are plenty of 308GTB 's out there, and if you want one, it's not to hard to find & buy. Whatever the end result of the project is, I get to watch, learn, and be entertained along the way for free. Get out there and do things!

    I've owned many a Honda motorcycle and raced them, so you could say I like Hondas, but on this car I'd much rather see the heart, the engine, kept as a Ferrari- either build the existing motor up or transplant another Ferrari powerplant (like maybe an engine out of a wrecked 458). Of course as always, everything comes down to $$$. To late for that, so I will continue watching with interest, good luck Mr. Burroughs and keep going!

    For comparison, how about this group 4 conversion- keep the heart and a large % of the chassis, and replace everything else!!


    My tastes are more up this alley (I really liked this example and absolutely love the color):
     
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  20. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    Thanks for the kind words and for the level approach, even if it's something you wouldn't do yourself, even as a Honda fan. :cool:
     
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  21. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
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    back in the 90's Ferrari poached Osomu Goto from Honda for its F-1 engine development... this is kind of same thing...
     
  22. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Isn't the point of racing winning? Track days are for fun, build what you want, go drive it around the track, don't worry about points , no need to show up in the rain, nice. Racing is following the rules and competing ....usually anyway. I've never gone racing to lose ;)
     
  23. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    No one would want to win if it wasn't fun to do so. Of course I'd like to win, but I am not concerned with failure. I will go and do my best, but I'm not going to be upset nor disappointed if my endeavor doesn't yield a podium finish... because it'll be fun either way.
     
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  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    The engine is lighter, yes
    The engine has a vastly higher power ceiling - ...not so much. a ferrari engines are pretty bullet proof, boost to your hard's content. My last engine was stock other than the valve springs running 24 psi.
    The engine is significantly cheaper to build and to maintain. - Stock, its WAY cheaper, not stock, its hard to say. A bone stock ferrari engine is good for 15psi, change out the valve springs and 30 should be ok. Replace pistons and 45 is probably ok. The gear box should hold 1000, maybe a bit more, its very strong. I have no idea about the honda those numbers seem unlikely.
    The engine will improve the dynamics of the car - very unlikely. This is already a mid-engine car so weight changes have limiter affect on handling, braking, polar moment. also, if you look closely at the 308 setup you'll see the engine sits quite far in front of the axle compared to the honda, so you will be moving the engine mass toward the rear which is not helpful. It will be lighter so it won't hurt much, but I can't see it improving anything. Maybe if you turn it 90 degrees and install it longitudinal, which would let you find a sturdier (but heavier) gearbox you could improve the dynamics a bit.
    The engine is more efficient - I guess in stock form that is probably true? for a race car why you'd even care ? 308 engines are pretty low compression as that was the start of the unleaded fuel era....but the low CR makes then prefect for boost and as soon as you modify anything it would be hard to say about efficiency, depends on the mods.
    The engine is easier to work on, easier to remove, and easier to rebuild. - Maybe. Less cylinders is less work I guess. Easier to remove I guess depends on what all you connect to it and where you put the bolts.
    The engine has far more aftermarket support and development. - Which only matters if you if the factory didn't already give you the best parts money can buy ;). Most anything you find in the aftermarket is a downgrade to a Ferrari engine unless you re shopping top-shelf, and those parts are all made to order regardless of application.
    The engine is newer and more advanced. - Newer sure, but more advance how exactly? Variable valve timing is nice on a street car, not sure it adds anything useful to a race car?
    The engine is more reliable. - hmmm ....that's probably not true. Stock, the honda will probably out life the ferrari miles wise as the honda, depending how its driven. But as I said Ferrari engines are pretty much bullet proof.

    These are are just made up and mostly false arguments. I'm not telling you its wrong, or you shouldn't do it...its your car, do whatever you want, I certainly do as you pointed out. I'm just asking you to be honest about it. If you just like k24 engines and 308 looks is a fine answer and I'm sure you can build a fine car combining them.....I'm also equally sure there are a couple dozen 308s floating around out there that will lap a track faster and more reliably than what you're proposing.
     
  25. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    There is a pretty big difference between entering races and racing. Winning means working hard to be the best. it means making good choices on the track and in the pits/shop. It means really understanding the rules and how to use them to your advantage. It means planning to win and executing the plan, not hoping or wishing to win....no one plans to fail they simply fail to plan. I couldn't comprehend showing up and expecting to lose.....
     
  26. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    No need to dissect this one.

    There are more 1000-1500hp K24s than we could hope to count. I'd like to see even just a handful of F106s pushing out that kind of power. I'm sure it's possible, and I'm sure someone's done it. There isn't, however, an industry dedicated to it. I can literally call one of probably a dozen names in the K24 industry that will ship me a 1300hp SFWD engine to my door.

    A KT1000 (2.4L K24 Turbo Engine built for 1200hp) engine is $9,925 before tax and shipping. It's an endurance level racing engine. It's $11k if you want them to provide a core. This pricing is from one of the most respected brands in K series performance, and that pricing is industry standard. There is no realm nor circumstance in which doing the same with a Ferrari engine is even comparable. It would be a struggle to even buy a complete core engine for the same price.

    You're kidding if you don't think that the dynamics of the car will be improved by dropping the weight some 400lbs. This one feels like you're arguing a point you probably don't even believe, just because you want to make it. Weight is the enemy, and I think most 308 owners would love to miraculously loose 400lbs of it.

    A modern, turbocharged, electronically fuel injected engine is absolutely and inarguably going to be more efficient. Same thing as the last one... this is an awful argument you're making, because you just want to be right.


    I don't think there's much I could possibly do to make it worse to remove and rebuild than the F106.

    You're gonna die on that hill? The F106 is the best parts money can buy?

    Modern engineering? An absolutely mental amount of money from Honda into development of this engine? Modern fuel injection? Control?
    You honestly believe a nearly-50-year-old (maybe more?) engine design is as advanced in overall design, construction, and execution?

    Back to my first one. Guys build these engines to make 1000+ hp for full seasons of racing. Let's see more than an anecdotal F106 do the same.

    I'll make a bet with you. When I'm finished, if you can find me one Ferrari 308 that can lap Buttonwillow 13CW (the gold standard in North America for Time Attack racing) faster than mine, I'll give you $500. Hold me to it.
    I'll give you three years to find one that can do a faster lap once I've finished setting the car up. If not, you pay up.
     
  27. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
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    I always thought racing was about testing yourself against others... I don't go racing to lose but I don't also think I'm always going to win... I like the competition but at my age I know winning is not really on the cards much...
     
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  28. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
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    This is kind of T Ting in the wind! if aftermarket parts were so bad - many companies would be out of biz...
    a Ferrari 308 engine of any vintage is a maintenance sensitive engine - no way around that. the pistons crank and bock may be stout yes, but its a delicate set up on the rest.
    40 years of technology certainly has improved even the most pedestrian engine compared to the 308.
    You can re build a 308 engine for massive power... but not only will it cost you, its always going to be sensitive to ongoing maintenance.
    These were never regular daily driver cars even when new. Ferrari only started doing that in the late 90's... where you could use them all the time...
     
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