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Nice ride, so this may cause considerable offence... Stanceworks 308 GTBi (Honda K24 Swap)

Discussion in '308/328' started by JC Andruet, Jan 2, 2021.

  1. Mike Burroughs

    Jul 28, 2020
    29
    Full Name:
    Michael Burroughs
    Amen.
     
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  3. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    The $10k engine you pointed to is a long block, the video say a motec ECU ($5k) and I see another probably $10k in parts bolted to it on the dyno....so its a $25k setup. They also say its a street engine but you can turn up the boost. I have no doubt it will survive a season of drag racing, road racing at 33 psi to hit the 1000hp they claim (not sure where you got 1200?) that seems unlikely....a few weekend track days, sure. A season of hot lap racing , yeah probably, but a season of endurance racing? hmmmm.....

    how do you plan to save 400lbs with the swap? Google tells me the k24 is 400lbs, same as a F106? Not sure what all is included and it sounds like you're added a turbo and coolers and such to hit the hp numbers you're claim so where are you finding 400lbs? 100 maybe.

    All I asked it that you be honest.......
     
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  4. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    It is indeed a long block. Motec isn't needed, a Syvecs (subset of Life Racing) is more than capable at a fraction of the cost. A Rywire motorsport harness would finish the job out. You could be into this for WELL under $20k. Still not even remotely comparable to the F106.

    As far as life span, call them up and ask them. I did before I went posting and runnin' my mouth about it. That engine is designed and build for road racing applications. I told them exactly what I am doing and what power level I want to make, and they said the KT1000 package, off the shelf, is 100% up to the task of doing so while making 1000 horsepower all day long.

    Lastly, weights.
    I weighed the F106, and doesn't weigh 400lbs. The engine and transmission, along with the starter and alternator, as well as a few odds and ends (intake manifold runners, some hoses, etc), weigh in at 611lbs. Add in all of the engine accessories, and it tips the scales at over 800. It was nearly 850lbs including the muffler.

    The K24 with ALL of the engine accessories, an intake manifold, an exhaust manifold, a wiring harness, and an ECU, comes in at 309 pounds. The transmission brings it to just shy of 400lbs... and that's FULLY dressed. Add in the muffler and cats from the 308 as though it were mounted in it, and it's still 400lbs lighter.

    The F106 is wildly heavy. Even if I add in 100lbs of turbo ****, the Honda power plant in its entirety will still weigh 300-350lbs (no muffler in my case) less than the Ferrari engine/drivetrain in its entirety. Maybe even more, as I am not running a factory transmission, mine will be lighter, as will the clutch and flywheel combo.

    I'm asking you to be honest. I'm bringing real-world hard numbers to the table here. I weighed both drivelines. I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass.
     
  5. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    apples and oranges.

    I'm sure it will be wonderful, best of luck.
     
  6. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    Obviously it's apples and oranges, that's the whole point. We're comparing different fruit. That's a copout way to say you're wrong, but I'll take it.

    My $500 offer will still stand.

    Thanks for the best wishes.
     
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  8. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #156 mk e, Jan 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
    850lbs all in stock sure sounds right. Just saying 600-650 sounds right in race trim for a F106+trans. That's close to what I've seen my blower motors were heavier. Your 400 off stock for the swap sounds fine,.... but its apples to oranges because modern OEM stuff already has most of the weight reductions you'd do to older stuff as part of a normal race prep.

    Then the trans weight part. The 308 trans will handle 1000hp as it....the drop gears are maybe a bit weak so a 328 trans would be a better bet but I don't think that adds even 5lb, just an extra bearing. The stock k24 is not so much known for strength....road racing over 3-400 you'll likely need to add some weight there to find something a bit beefier.

    apples and oranges on the way you are reporting weights.

    $500 3 years from now? remind me what class you are building for? I thought I read a non-boosted class but now is seems like a prototype class or some kind?
     
  9. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    The stock K24 trans will definitely blow its guts out north of 400hp. I'll be running a custom Quaife sequential gearbox if all works out correctly. The upshot is most of the case is factory or billet, and it's a remarkably light unit.

    The three year window is to be fair. Take as much or as little as you'd like. My car will be on track and competing this year.

    I will be running in the Limited Class ruleset. Huge power, huge aero, major suspension/chassis changes permitted. This year's champion was Feras Qartoumy this Corvette, if you want an understanding of what Limited Class cars tend to look like.

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  10. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    What sanctioning body?

    $10k for the trans then? Or do they have a cheaper Honda option?

    Its just not cheap to run 1000hp on the road race track, it doesn't matter what you start with it all ends up expensive is all I'm saying.
     
  11. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    The transmission is about $8,000. Pennies on the dollar compared to most sequential gearbox offerings, but probably one of the most expensive aspects of the car.

    Global Time Attack, which is sanctioned by the SCCA .
     
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  13. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    If you can have this thing running around a track before year's end my hat's off to you but personally I think your estimates are wildly over-optimistic. Right now you don't even have a K24, all you have is a seriously corroded core of dubious quality and surprise - it don't fit. So you need to start hacking up the frame at some rather important structural points and while you've got some ideas none of it has been tried or tested yet. You've got some serious snags to work your way through and these are just the first. Expect cost and time over-runs and maybe in the end you'll have to own up to it wasn't exactly the slam-dunk you thought it was gonna be.

    But I'm rootin' for you. I want to see how you handle all of this. I've been watching a guy in Australia called Homebuilt by Jeff He's done a 240Z, a lengthy 911 project and now he's putting a Ferrari 360 engine into an old 105 Alfa GTV. He shows all of his mistakes, all of his dead-ends and all of the stuff he has to learn and that he has had to completely undo and rethink. Granted, I don't think you'll run into as many obstacles as Jeff but you've got a bumpy road ahead of you.

    Good luck.
     
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  14. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    #161 M.Burroughs, Jan 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
    I appreciate that you're rooting for me, and you're not wrong about the hurdles that lie ahead. With that said, this is far from my first rodeo/wild build. I've got my timeline as rather conservative (and I believe I could have this car running in about 6 weeks time if I wasn't filming the whole process).

    Here are some of my credentials. I don't think you're likely to like them, but it should illustrate I've built some stuff over the years, most of it from scratch. Hopefully, with an open mind, you'll at least appreciate the work.

    Here's the underpinnings of a mid-engined Group 5 tribute "rat rod skinned" BMW I built a few years back, complete with pushrod suspension, a dry sump race S38, a one-off body built to look rough-and-tumble, etc etc etc. 100% new race car underneath, "rat rod BMW Group 5 car" on the outside. You can see this is in my shop from years ago. This car was built entirely in about 2 years time, after hours. It just returned from spending a year at the BMW CCA headquarters on display.

    [​IMG]

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    Here's a Group A Eggenberger E28 tribute/restoration I built, with a complete M5 driveline and underpinnings. This car was ground-up in about 4 months.

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    In partnership with Motul:

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    Here's a 6.0 LS-swapped FJ60 Land Cruiser I built and drove for several years. This one I bought as a truck with no engine. I had it up and running in a handful months or so.

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    This isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I built this in 2018. I began with a completely stock 1931 Ford, and built the chassis, all of the suspension, my own IFS, etc. It has a 730whp blown Coyote in it, LMP1 wheels, pushrod rear suspension, etc. Again, likely not anyone's cup of tea here, but I built this vehicle in its entirety in about 6 months for SEMA 2018.


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    There are a number of others, but you get the gist. I've built a handful of cars at this point, several of which have literally been from scratch/the ground up, from chassis to engines to suspension design and layout. I can tackle pretty much anything you put in front of me and I am eager to learn anything I am unfamiliar with.

    I hope this doesn't come off as confrontational. Here's hoping it further bolsters your confidence and excitement to see it finished. I would be devastated if the car wasn't finished by November, and I think my sponsors would be disappointed as well. ;)
     
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  15. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    I looked at the class, I thought you were talking about actual road racing and said the engine was an endurance build, as it 12 hour on track events. This is a hot lap event which is much closer to drag raging than road racing engine demand wise as it doesn't see the run time hours nor the heat....I'm sure that engine will survive all season when a season is 10-20 hot laps, as in the warmup at an actual roadrace. My bad I sure have read more carefully.

    This rule maybe problematic for you, as I said the 308 trans puts the engine quite a bit more forward of the rear axle than the honda setup. I've not measures but I suspect there is probably close to an 8" difference so its probably an illegal swap without a more custom trans case design. The as close as possible you can do, but engine center must be no more than 2" rearward you can without a custom trans or similar. You might want to talk to someome to be sure before proceeding as the tech inspection and other competitors take rules like this pretty seriously and this kind of violation will get the car banned pretty quickly.

    4. Engine swaps are open. If an engine and or transmission swap is performed the new engine and or transmission must be installed as close as possible to the OEM engine and transmission location. The center (fore/aft) of a swapped in engine must be no more rearward than 2” of the original engine.
     
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  16. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 12, 2005
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    very nice work! I would love to a rat rod Lotus Europa... kind of like a GT47 ++++
     
  17. Brian A

    Brian A Formula 3

    Dec 21, 2012
    2,355
    SanFrancisco BayArea
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    1983 US 308 GTS QV
    I saw your “Rusty Slammington” while it was on display at the BMW Museum during BMW CCA Oktoberfest 2019. Very cool build.
     
  18. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    Yes, I have viewed your channel and not to disrespect your talent but I see most of your work as a sort of Neo-Steam-Punk-Rat-Rod artistic expression rather than highly engineered and capable vehicles. It's interesting, for sure and I can tell that you get a lot of satisfaction out of doing it but if you want to claim that you are going to make a 308 that is wildly "better" in every measure, well... call me skeptical. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and keep watching. We'll see.
     
  19. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    It's an aesthetic I like, but both my Model A and the Group 5 E28 are brand new underneath. The Model A's IFS was completely engineered in CAD to have proper KPI, roll center, instant centers, scrub radius, camber and caster curves, etc. The outside of my cars may look like I don't care, but it's the engineering underneath to make them work that counts.
     
  20. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    same thought. For sure very nice work, very nice but they art not race and the 2 are very different....a lesson I learned the hard way many years ago. This goes back to what I was saying earlier that racing is about taking advantage of the rules to gain advantage.....or at least following them by not doing what appears to be an illegal engine swap. The rule appears to all but exclude any engine swap that doesn't use a 308 trany, but even then something like my V12 swap would also be illegal as I kept the OEM trans location but moved the engine about 3" forward the way I did it.

    The class rules just make it so if you start with a 308 you pretty much need to keep the 308 engine block so 308 block, 360 crank and liners (makes rebuild cheaper/easier than the big bore liners), QV or 348 heads, a couple turbos is the go, 1000hp no problem.

    Most 308 race efforts also remove the steel body as its mostly not structural but this is also illegal in this class. This class just doesn't seem to fit a 308 in general or this project in particular.
     
  21. JC Andruet

    JC Andruet Karting

    Jan 16, 2013
    128
    I have to admit that having watched your latest video earlier today, I was concerned as to how you were going to address the two vertical sections of the chassis that are obstructing the path of the driveshafts.
    Having seen your previous builds, I’m less concerned now :)
    I reckon with the dry sump arrangement fitted, the vertical members will be less of an issue.

    I think I’d be inclined to cut out the existing verticals and replace them with an equally heavy duty member with a reverse “C” section made out of some thick wall tube, and then infill/plate the inner and outer faces of the chassis members to ensure structural integrity in that area of the chassis.

    I wasn’t convinced by your chosen mounting point high up on the transmission.
    The rear of the diff casing looked to have some better placed (much lower down/closer to the existing longitudinal chassis cross brace) mounting points.:)

    The stock K series oil pump is a monster, so you may still come out lighter with the dry sump kit ...
     
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  22. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    Right, but unless I'm missing something they don't have license tags, you can't get insurance or drive them on the street and they don't fit any competitive race category so they are basically just "Art" and I don't mean to say that in a negative way. I'm just explaining my skepticism when you tell us you are building a "better" more reliable, daily driver 308. I'm not seeing that.
     
  23. JC Andruet

    JC Andruet Karting

    Jan 16, 2013
    128
    Tough crowd.
    You guys really need to give credit where credit is due.
    I’m a cynical Brit, hence my starting this very thread in the first place.

    I’ve read plenty of Mke’s posts on here, it’s clear he has the necessary credentials to critique this build, and his credentials bear scrutiny too.
    But the rest of you guys ? ? You’re appearing sadly parochial and not doing yourselves or indeed your arguments any favours. So to that end, do please feel free to post up your images and descriptions of all the cars you’ve engineered from the ground up.
     
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  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    I honestly don't mean for it to sound like I'm critiquing the build, I'm really not. "I love to looks of the 308 but I trust honda engines" is a fine answer.....but that's really not how it went and even if it had its not an answer that will get any more love on a ferrari forum than a Camaro with a ford engine on a chevy forum. Its not wrong though, I don't personally build cross-dressers any more (the fiadillac cured me) but lots and lots of people do everyday.


    I had only 2 points

    1) a road race car is not a show car or a street car or a drag car, they are all unique, all with unique challenges, all hard to do well.

    2) there are no magic engines out there, not ferrari, not honda. Its just a machine and little has changed since the 50s really, at least little that can't be retrofitted. The build laying on my shop floor waiting its turn is is a 1947 Lincoln flathead V12 and even that can be made WAY better so it will very likely get a pretty big blower and direct injection and such and it will make modernish street hp when I'm done with it....then I will put it in a ford just cuz that's what I personally prefer to build.
     
  25. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    I'm pretty sure that when Burroughs came here with the premise that he thinks the 308 is a fat pig POS and that he's gonna make a better one with a Honda engine he pretty much knew he was going to meet a "tough crowd" and that's actually a big part of the show. Because it is a show and it's on YouTube. I've been cordial and respectful for what it is and see StanceWorks as metallic art. Do your own research, it's all out there to see right down to the phony patina like a pair of stone washed jeans. These aren't functional vehicles, they are ARTWORK.

    So it remains to be seen what he's going to do with this 308 and I'll give credit where it's due but it ain't due yet. Mike's got talent for sure and I'm not making any personal slams against him but I'm not especially awed by his technical prowess, at least not yet. There are plenty of examples of that right here on fchat, plenty of stuff to learn from too. As I said earlier, this might be a horror show as we watch a perfectly nice 308 get hacked up and Mike himself has warned us of it.

    So fasten your seatbelts. lol
     
  26. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    This is my non-functional art Group A car turning laps out at Chuckwalla.

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    I had to. :D Plenty of what I've done is art first and foremost, but plenty isn't.

    In the end, watch along if you wand, don't if you don't want to. I've got a great team behind me to build what I think will be an incredibly capable car. H&R Springs is helping with all of the suspension dynamics, the fastest NSX in North America/the fastest Street Class car in the world at the moment (which is currently faster than this year's Limited Class champion) is helping to develop the aero, along with the chief engineer of a FSAE team that has a masters in CFD. I'm having a great team build the engine, so on and so forth.

    Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. It'll be a hell of a lot of fun either way.
     
  27. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

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    See, this is what I mean. What exactly are you talking about? Is there an actual title for "fastest NSX in North America"? or "fastest Street Class car in the world"? If so, fastest at what and who presents the titles? who are the competitors? How about the drivers? Who are they?

    Again - paint me Mr Skeptic...
     
  28. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    #175 M.Burroughs, Jan 23, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
    Man, you really don't like superlatives.


    The NSX I am referencing is driven by Amir Bentatou and was the Street Class champion for the SCCA sanctioned Global Time Attack series and Super Lap Battle. SLB is an international-level competition with cars and drivers coming from other countries. Seeing as the NSX won, it makes it the fastest street class car out there. If someone wants to claim they're the fastest Street Class car, come and beat it.

    As far as what makes it the fastest NSX in North America, the NSX community that tracks/races their cars isn't THAT big, and its widely agreed upon. It's absurdly fast. It runs 1:43s at 13CW. It holds Street Class lap records at several tracks. For comparison, another one of the fastest drivers I know (holds the Limited Class FWD record at 13CW) has a mildly built NSX that has a best of 1:57.

    Fastest at what? Turning laps.


    Thanks for ignoring the actual point behind the post just to pick stuff apart.
     

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