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Nice ride, so this may cause considerable offence... Stanceworks 308 GTBi (Honda K24 Swap)

Discussion in '308/328' started by JC Andruet, Jan 2, 2021.

  1. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,841
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    The Butcher
    It appears to be out there all alone under the perfect lighting.....much like a photo shoot using a track as a backdrop. Very pretty pictures, but I'll bite, what class was it running that day and what event was this so I can look up the results to see how it finished that day?

    I'm not is any way questioning your work, I like the cars you've done...but they are race inspired not actual race cars. The 308 you're building seems the same as you're engine swap is not legal in the class you say you're building the car for. I haven't watched the videos but a quote above talks about the axle running though a frame vertical, the only way that can happen is if you changed the wheelbase, which is also illegal in the your chosen class or have the axles misaligned which will screwup handling and kill the axles in short order, either way tis bad. If you want to go racing you need a class legal car, the car you're building will won't be able to clear tech and will never get an official lap time.

    Racing is about rules, but more importantly its about using the rules to your advantage, which usually means building what you need not what you want. It sounds like you know a couple NSX guys so go get yourself an NSX that your buddies can help you setup, swap in a turbo k24 to save a little weight and have at it. If an NSX curranty has the class record, you know that is a solid place to start and come out competitive. Or put the F106 back in the 308 and go race knowing its an uphill fight, but who doesn't love a challenge? ..... or countless other options...but whatever you decide you need a class legal car to race. This is a big part of why I don't race anymore, the stuff I like to build either isn't allowed or maintaining it would be way to much effort that I'd rather put into building something else.

    Which brings us back to just be honest....there's nothing wrong with building what you want. I'm sure it will look great just like your other projects.
     
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  3. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,841
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    Oh! Swing the engine around longitudinally and stretch it 4" and fun it as a 288... it's the same car. That would probably be legal with any engine you please and the aero and balance would also be improved, and the body was fiberglass so your freed up their too. It's a much better fit to the class, but I'd call someone first to be sure they'll allow the conversion.....I'll bet they would if you explain the 288 was just a factory modded 308 and you're bringing yours to the same specs.
     
  4. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
    1,164
    California SF area
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    Paul
    Yea, you're right. I shouldn't get so wound up over this. You must have said something that ticked me off but to be honest I don't even know what it was. So I think I'll go back to being my normal, cordial self and stop picking nits. I offer my apologies.
     
  5. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    Man, I have never encountered someone so pathetically hell-bent on discrediting someone else. At this point I'm confident you're just projecting some major insecurities.

    Those particular photos are from February 11, 2017, with SpeedVentures, where there were more than 100 other cars participating. It wasn't a competitive day.

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    Here's some more photos of it "out there all alone under the perfect lighting.....much like a photo shoot using a track as a backdrop" competing in the Bimmer Challenge series in class B-5 on March 4th, 2017. Want me to post pics from April 8th? or June 10th?

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    It's almost like... hear me out... my friends and business partners are professional photographers that can capture an instant in time that makes for a "pretty picture" even if it's in the middle of a session. How miserable it must be to be such a skeptic.

    The car ran a 2:06.04 at 13CW, and a 2:08.07 at Chuckwalla, both of which are right on pace with a Spec E30 race car. Mine's not on slicks, and it's considerably heavier. More power, too, though. Both times are available and validated online by the series host. Go find 'em if you care so much.


    I keep ignoring your dissection of the rules because, as I said before, I have never encountered someone so pathetically hell-bent on discrediting someone else. Unfortunately, it seems you just want to pick at and tear apart what I am doing. Any guise of "I'm not questioning your work" is thrown out the window when you won't give me the benefit of the doubt that I've got some grasp of what I am doing.

    You're wrong about your interpretation of the frame verticals. I don't have to change the wheelbase and the change to the frame is legal in the class. The engine crank centerline will be within spec for the rules, and that's precisely why I need to remove the vertical frame members... So that the axle can travel to the hubs from the appropriate place.

    Lastly, if the car is for some reason illegal in the class, then I'll run it in the Unlimited Class... I absolutely do not give a ****. I'm building the car because I want to, because it's what I want. You're so absurdly hung up on reasons to invalidate that.


    So just because its a problem for you means it should be a problem for me? I already told you, I'm building the car I want to. I'm going to go compete with it. I don't care if I win. At all. I'm going out because it's an objective and something to do with the car. Because it's fun.

    The way this is phrased seems like such a slight, which is silly... because I've been completely honest and upfront about what I want to build and why I'm building it. You're parading around with rule sets, you're trying to discredit my efforts, you're trying to invalidate things I say.... And tell me to just be honest about what I want to build when that's all I've done.

    You just don't like it. Own it.
     
  6. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    The internet gets the best of us all. I appreciate this, and I apologize if my posts have been abrasive or antagonizing. I've been tasked with defending myself every time I reply in an effort to level with people or set the record straight.
     
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  8. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,308
    London, UK
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    Derek W
    Mike, I'm impressed with anyone who can tame a beast like the one you are building-- as they say, anyone can drive a fast car but few can drive a car fast. How much experience do you have racing and in what cars? Any success? I haven't raced a real car since my 20's and I was moderately crap then so I'm looking forward to seeing how I manage (at 54) on some track days when my 308 is finished. I still occasionally go carting and enjoy the surprised looks of the young lads I pass. I look forward to watching you racing it.
     
  9. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    Thanks Derek, I appreciate that.
    I think it's important for me to clarify, in case anyone missed it, that I'm participating in Time Attack racing, which isn't wheel-to-wheel racing for position. It's still a slew of cars on track, but its a competition for building a car to a set of rules and attempting to place the fastest laptime within a given class.

    I'm what I'd call an amateur driver. I have the essentials of car control in the basket and can wrangle a car with confidence on track at the limit.

    As far as success, I have only actually entered in one series, but my car was not competitive. The E28 sedan above was built much like the Ferrari - because I wanted to build it. I figured out what class it fits in after the fact, and went out and had fun. I think my best finish was 4th, but the car (and my talent at the time) weren't up to the competition.

    I've been putting in a lot of effort to grow my talents as a driver, and I've got an absolutely incredible group of friends/talented drivers to help coach me along the way. I've been told I'm ready to step into the 308 once it's finished and ready.
     
  10. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
    1,308
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    Derek W
    It’s bad enough having to fix the car when you have made a mistake but a lot worse when someone else on the track makes a mistake and you are left paying for it. The nice thing about forced induction is that you can turn up the power as your skills allow.
     
  11. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
    1,164
    California SF area
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    Paul
    Well this is the 308 section of fchat so I suppose that's to be expected as we are all fairly biased, maybe even to an unreasonable extent, we generally love our cars. I imagine that you already had this project laid out in your head before getting your 308 but I can't help but think it's a little disappointing that you didn't spend a few months with it and ring it out on maybe the Big Bear Loop or Angeles Crest Highway (I used to live in socal) Maybe you did, I don't know, but the 308 is a car that takes a bit of time to get acclimated to after which it's like a good fitting pair of broken in jeans and on roads like those it's got plenty of oomph, even a 1980 two valve. It may have augmented your base opinion of the car even if it wouldn't alter your plan for it.
     
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  13. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    wow, a lot of name calling and anger.......
     
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  14. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    I don't see where I called you any names. I'm also not angry. I'm just telling it like it is.



    With every reply I give you comes another subject change. Tell me how I'm wrong this time, or please just go away and finish your own project.
     
  15. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #187 mk e, Jan 24, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
    I have tried to explain the problems but once a discussion moves to alternate facts (or personal attacks) I've found its best to politely change the subject and move on......carry on.
     
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  16. Mike Burroughs

    Jul 28, 2020
    29
    Full Name:
    Michael Burroughs
  17. ChevyDave

    ChevyDave Rookie

    Dec 21, 2019
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    Pacific Northwest, USA
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    Dave W
    188 posts would disagree with you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  18. Mike Burroughs

    Jul 28, 2020
    29
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    Michael Burroughs
    That logic holds up great! The number of replies in this thread directly relates to the amount I care about what class my car eventually lands in.

    You caught me. I actually do care if somehow my car is placed in Unlimited. God forbid.

    :p
     
  19. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
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    Dec 12, 2005
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    Tom Spiro
    Much like Ferrari's - Ferrari Chat is not for the feint at heart. but my experience here has been for every negative poster... there are 10-20 folks who support you and what you are doing. Not many have the time, skill, and money to do what you are doing.... keep going and stay on track... unless the folks at Fchat are paying for your project - it really does not matter. .... any more updates?
     
  20. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    You're 100% correct, I appreciate the supportive words.

    I'm currently just working on engine positioning, and I need to get some parts on order to make forward progress there, so I have shifted my focus back to some other areas. I'm waiting on word back from the engine builder so I can get my ducks in a row.
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Angling the axles to achieve a desired engine location runs you into this rule which could prevent entry in ANY class as that is generally considered unsafe.

    " (Any questionable modifications not specifically covered within the class and overall rules must be submitted for clarification and allowed by GTA Staff.)"
     
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  22. M.Burroughs

    M.Burroughs Karting

    Dec 11, 2010
    71
    And here I thought you were finally gone for good.

    The axles in the Ferrari are angled forward from the factory. There's nothing wrong with angle to the axles, as that's what CV joints are built to do. In fact, all IRS axles operate at an angle, as they have to in order to swing through the range of travel. We're just adding some angle to a different axis. I'm also not talking about much angle here.

    You are just flat out wrong and trying to argue... again.

    Please, please stop coming in here chiming in with your attempted "gotcha" moments and just go be grumpy somewhere else.
     
  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    #195 mk e, Jan 25, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
    There is no attempt to "gotcha" , but somebody has to read the rule book for you ;)

    Actually I've thought about a few different time trails type race classes quite a bit over the years and read the rules pondering my own interest in it....still pondering.

    As I've tried several times to explain, racing is about showing up with a car that meets the rules requirements before you even get to find out how well it all works or what if anything breaks or need improvement. Its not like other types of build, street kind of as there are quite a few rules to get or keep a registration, but they are very different kinds of rules.

    Speaking of rules, bumping to unlimited solves the engine location issue (not the angled axles issue) but also moves you from class 1 to class 3 safety rules which are much more extensive so a car built to only the limited class specs would not meet them and not be allowed to compete. If unlimited is the fall back you'll need to built accordingly.

    The point is safety. Moving the engine changes the vehicle balance. They know the balance and crash protection is ok on the factory setup but don't want to be responsible for other setups, so if you change it, you need additional safety stuff just in case just in case. Also you can normally figure there wouldn't be a rule if it didn't make you go faster, so any impact would likely be at higher speed, and again reason to add additional safety measures.

    I've been thought various tech inspections more time than I can count and I've been the tech inspector a few times over the years and I promise you that they will know every single word in the rule book and have a copy close at hand to point out the concerns. They will have also already heard every evasive answer imaginable .....because that's racing and everyone is trying to game the rules in one way or another.

    The concern with angled axles is about the plane of the angle. up/down and any induced load is handled by the a-arm and a nonissue for the most part other than join life which is a function of load and time at angle. front/back and any induced load is transferred into the springs, which makes it squirrely throttle/off as its loading/unloading the tires. The induced load is from the friction in the joints, the higher the angle and higher the torque the higher the induced load. A 1/2" front/back is probably fine, a few inches is probably a lot less fine, but lots of variables so most builds just try to avoid it.. Almost certainly worth a call to the tech people to be sure before you weld....they might be fine with it but better to know before you get to the track.
     
  24. derekw

    derekw Formula 3

    Sep 7, 2010
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    Mike, is the K24 too tall to sit on the ZF gearbox (or does it matter if it sits higher and the deck is modified to suit?) just a thought as it may work for a start. You could make a custom bell housing and drop gear case. There are custom ratio square cut racing drop gears available so you can switch ratio depending on the track.
     
  25. Mike Burroughs

    Jul 28, 2020
    29
    Full Name:
    Michael Burroughs
    Kinda like coming back with points and saying "gotcha, you missed this!" Trust me, I have read the rulebook, because I ran a shop building cars specifically to meet the rulebook. I'm a (former) professional fabricator who has had a major hand in building cars specifically for this series.

    Thanks for trying to be my teacher/coach/dad, but I'm good. I've got a grasp on it. If I need help, I'll ask for it, and if I have questions, I'll ask them.
    As far as telling me what racing is about, that's for you. I've made it clear, several times, I do not care what category the car goes into, and I do not care if I need to change things to meet the ruleset thereafter. I'm building the car for fun. I will drive the car for fun. It will just so happen to be in competition against other people.

    As far as axle offset, the K series and the F106 are about the same, just in different directions.

    You're really stretching here. I hope you exercise so you don't hurt yourself.

    The 308 gearbox may be usable, but I'm not really fussed with trying to make it work. There's a fantastic solution at hand for the K series that I am keen on (a Quaife sequential gearbox). The only variable is just making sure the axles/chassis play fairly with one another, which I am not too worried about at this moment.
     
  26. ChipG

    ChipG Formula 3

    May 26, 2011
    1,211
    Santa Monica, CA
    I see you can build a k24 Turbo with 1,000HP for around $14k

    Why not do this and de-tune it to 600-700hp for the street then always have the option to turn it up at the track?

    Nice videos btw
     
  27. Mike Burroughs

    Jul 28, 2020
    29
    Full Name:
    Michael Burroughs
    Great minds... That is, to a T, what I’ll be doing! A ~1200hp capable engine that’ll run (with a different turbo setup) at 5-600hp on track.

    And thanks! I appreciate that.
     
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  28. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
    11,841
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    It took 5 or 6 pages but we got there :)

    So an inch-ish forward on the axles gets you to the 2" rear engine location? Which I guess is a bit pro-squat vs the stock inch or so back which is a bit anti-squat?

    Are you planning a water/air intercooler or thinking you can get an air/air to work?

    Sticking with the stock coolant pipes to the front? how many laps is a "session" ?...just wondering how much heat you need to move, a went round and round with it before leaving stock figuring no track time (because my car doesn't really fit in a class), just wondering what you settled on?

    that one took 8 pages....I wondered how the parts you listed were going to live. It makes a lot more sense now, thanks.
     

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