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Nice work Joolia Gillard.....

Discussion in 'Australia' started by Scaramouche, Jun 23, 2010.

  1. greg246

    greg246 F1 World Champ
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    And you know this from your extensive experience in working in the health system? No need to apologise, like I said, you have no idea

    Plenty of private hospitals now have their own Emergency department and ICU. If or when I have a cardiac event, I will elect to go to The San or St Vincents private because I will be attended to by specialists directly and not wait hours to be assessed by an inexperienced intern whilst valuable time is being wasted. Similarly for acute neurological events, Macquarie private hospital has better facilities and experienced specialists than any public hospital. With regards to cancer, the care is better in a private cancer facility again because you are dealing directly with specialists and not trainees. There will be no waiting period for radiotherapy or surgery unlike the public system where from diagnosis to onset of treatment is usually six weeks (meanwhile the cancer keeps growing). Sure major trauma will end up at a public hospital, but once out of ICU I'd get the **** out of there pronto

    In the meantime Labor voters clog the public hospital system with ailments that could be effectively treated in the private system, whilst those that truly can't afford private care are made to wait longer and longer. Plenty of champagne socialists are doing this, in fact our own Labor MP Nicola Roxon who is on a few $100k a year went through the public system when she had her child. Just disgraceful IMO

    And you seem to imply that making money in the private system is a problem? Do you really think most specialists including myself studied till their mid 30s whilst earning $30/hr are not entitled to make a quid when they finally get their ticket?

    Know eye dear
     
  2. greg246

    greg246 F1 World Champ
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    And the idiots who handed out the cash had no system in place to make sure rorting would not happen

    Seriously, know eye dear
     
  3. scud

    scud F1 World Champ

    Oct 2, 2004
    11,532
    I strongly recommend you all grab today's weekend aussie and look
    at 'cut and paste'.

    Classic timeline of surplus quotes from gillard and swan.

    Funny as.
     
  4. 916senna

    916senna Karting

    Sep 26, 2010
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    Jon
    Funny sad , not funny ha ha.

    http://video.theaustralian.com.au/2319097508/Shifting-ground
    An edited version will make a great advert for the libs come election time.
     
  5. Schmick325

    Schmick325 Formula Junior

    Mar 10, 2004
    868
    Bris east
    The pink batts scheme was a farce. I knew 2 pommies (completely unqualified)
    who flew out here and drummed up enough biz for 3 months work in advance.

    I had idiots knocking on the door with business cards with someone else's name scribbled out looking to sign me up.

    I'm the end I had 'cool or cozy' installed and it made a huge difference to the house.

    Pity all the others caught up in another labor f up.

    Should have been qualified contractors only.
     
  6. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    lol...you don't have to be qualified to install insulation. it's not rocket science. but there needed to be controls on who, how, how much etc.

    the reality was it became a rip off that the tax payers funded.

    The fire in the roof thing ...well....i'm not convinced about that stuff and the real causes.
     
  7. Horse

    Horse Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Note to self - take the advice of the Doctor as far as best medical treatment goes. ;)
     
  8. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    Whom?
     
  9. MrGrigio

    MrGrigio Formula Junior

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    #1059 MrGrigio, Dec 22, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2012
    Hmmmm. Makes me laugh when I read people talking about economics when they are indeed quite clueless.

    First, Governments are not households and businesses. A deficit for a government is not the same as a debt/deficit for a household or business when the government has sovereign control over its currency and the currency is not tied to a gold standard. In such cases, Government deficits are a good thing. Google MMT (Modern Monetary Theory to understand if your interested). Its not for nothing that the Clinton surpluses were in part responsible for the private sector debt orgy prior to the GFC in the USA. Ditto for Australia?

    Secondly, as Kerrari has observed, when public utilities were privatised, I didn't see a reduction in prices. All I saw was cost cutting in the name of efficiency and productivity and an increase in profits, which went to the new private owners. Isn't this just income redistribution under a different name?

    Thirdly, money is never lost-it just got distributed differently. Rorts, corruption, whatever you like to call it, its just income re-distribution. Whether its Liberal or Labor, it nearly the same, except under Labor, it just less concentrated. Power corrupts-its just a question of degree and with Labor, just more individuals are the beneficiaries of corruption and hence why more get caught.

    Fourthly, when the middle class expanded during the 50s, 60s and 70s, wasn't the western world much more socialistic then it is now? We have seen market reforms (otherwise known as neoclassical economics) that were introduced under the Reagan, Thatcher and Hawke/Keating (oh the irony on that one) governments steadily erode the middle class and create greater income disparity and household debt.

    You gotta love the Ponzi scheme started by the Howard government otherwise known as the housing boom. Lets get those suckers in with a first home loan grant. All those poorly built houses and apartments post 2000. Great investment! Amazingly productive assets for the economy. And negative gearing. Lovely legal tax rort that one.

    I can go on (as I do sometimes) but do a bit of research first and attack me. Ready and waiting with some data.

    Like Kerrari, I have left leanings despite owning a glorified Fiat X1/9 and owning my house outright in East Melbourne. No, I didn't get a cent from my parents and I work so hard that at least one day a week I don't sleep, as some members on this forum can testify. I was lucky with some investments. I worked hard for it but if things went the other way, I'd be in the poor house.

    P.S-btw, not defending the current Labor government.....just not sure if Liberal governments are much better......
     
  10. kerrari

    kerrari F1 World Champ
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    No, I have no problem with people making money from an honest profession they have trained long and hard for (try 7 years for the 2 degrees you need to be registered as an architect - medicos don't have a monopoly on hard work) but I do have a problem with people who don't look beyond their own white-bread backyard.

    YOU can elect to go to The San or St Vin - pick up the phone and ask Klink how useful his private health cover would be should he be mowed down by a semi in the rural town he lives in - how may k's to the nearest private emergency department? Or have a chat to my uncles who live in Rockhampton (a major rural centre) where there is NO cardiac specialist and NO resident oncologist (public or private). Both, despite having contributed for years to the rort, found in their time of need, no service provided. Both were forced to travel to Brisbane for care - one opted for a private hospital (heart) one for public (oncology - particular specialist recommended the public hospital because of the treatment required not available at private hospitals in Brisbane). Both were full of praise for the care they received.

    Yes the public emergency wards are clogged with malingerers; just like the private health system is rorted by people collecting their new specs, sneakers, massages, etc etc.every year because 'they're entitled to them'

    A huge percentage of Australia's population was forced into a system which provides NO SERVICE to them, at the cost of the public system which does, or did, provide such a service.

    Yes, particular private hospitals provide better services in particular areas to particular people - at the cost of the average Australian - are Australians in general better off because of this? - no. Tear your ACL in a skiing accident, private is great; break your leg in a rural car accident, it's the 'socialist' local hospital that's going to fix you. Sorry, NO apology from me on this.

    Oh and let's just have a chat about GPs in remote areas who collude to block bulk-billing of medicare? No idea? Go and find out.
     
  11. kerrari

    kerrari F1 World Champ
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    Exactly! That's really what I dream of - people actually looking objectively at a whole picture... talk about somewhere over the rainbow!
     
  12. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Dec 10, 2005
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    Pap
    I have seen where Klink lives, I thought WE were isolated living out here. :eek:

    Nicole and I pay $4500 per year for private health as individuals, we don't have a private hospital here of course. We are going to start a new private health cover as a family when we get around to it.

    We went "private" with the birth of the twins, I don't think it was any different if we went public.

    We had to pay for each baby scan through "private", $250 each scan. Lost count of how many we had. Through the public system, the scans are free. I was a little dirty over this and kept asking Nicole why we bother with private health out here.

    When we move to a major city I would have no problem paying for it, but out here still has me ****ed as to why we bother.

    **Tax reasons mostly, I am $200 better off having private health come tax time...................but not anymore I think**
     
  13. greg246

    greg246 F1 World Champ
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    Well, it takes on average 15 years to qualify as a Specialist with a couple of undergrad and post grad degrees so becoming an architect is a piece of p$ss in comparison :p



    That is exactly why people who can afford it need to contribute so that those in outlying areas can be provided with appropriate care through the public system


    And imagine what would happen if everyone followed your ideology and went public for everything. The system would collapse! I suppose you're in favour of the government withdrawing funding for private schools too. Guess what would happen if that occurred



    Wrong, unlike yourself I have worked extensively in the health system and of the thousands of patients I treated in emergency I can count the "malingerers" on one hand. The point is most of those patients attending should be treated privately instead of clogging the system



    I don't have extras cover as it is a WOFTAM. Pure marketing


    You do realise that the medicare levy does not even come close to paying for healthcare costs. Everything has to be paid for somehow. "at the cost of the public system" - more untruths


    Yes, that's why we need people to take more responsibilty for their own health so that remote areas can be appropriately funded.

    Wow, now you're an expert on running a medical parctice in a remote area :rolleyes: Bulk billing only works (marginally) if you are seeing a large volume of patients (=lesser quality of care, you get what you pay for etc). They would go broke and shut their doors if they had to BB and then what happens?


    It's interesting that you're happy to be part of this chat forum yet do not pay to become a subscribed member and help with its running costs. Kinda sums up your ideology
     
  14. greg246

    greg246 F1 World Champ
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    And if the **** hit the fan, you would have had a specialist treating you directly not left to the mercy of the midwives.

    And the "free" ultrasounds would have been done by someone who is not good enough to get a job in private practice and not directly supervised by a Specialist Radiologist who would be able to directly influence the examination. Instead those images would be sent to dodgy practice in a metropolitan centre and reported by someone who could not give a crap about what they were looking at.
     
  15. MrGrigio

    MrGrigio Formula Junior

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    Todays lesson in economics.

    When the public sector (i.e government) goes into deficit, the private sector goes into surplus

    When the private sector goes into deficit, the government sector needs to go into surplus.

    This is the simple accounting equation.

    Isn't the GFC a perfect example at just HOW efficient the private sector is at allocating resources?

    Which sector is most likely to repay its debts (when they have sovereign control over the money)?

    Looking forward to when the private sector bails out the government next!

    Just ask any good money market trader/banker how money and debt is really created. Its just might surprise you how the wool has been pulled over your eyes.

    Unfortunately, we are all inherently selfish and we all are just trying to accumulated as much wealth to quell our unlimited desires.

    Governments are not noble........they are corrupt but then, so is the private sector, just perhaps more so (o.k just my subjective opinion)
     
  16. GERRA456gt

    GERRA456gt Formula 3

    Jun 4, 2005
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    Yesterday my cool room fridge needed to be re-gassed bloody thing cost me 300% more
    than it did two years ago.
    So basicly and businesses like mine are being used as "tax collectors" for this stupid Federal Government.
    thanks alot!:(
     
  17. Aircon

    Aircon Seven Time F1 World Champ

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    OLIO

    SSG isn't that much!
     
  18. simon klein

    simon klein F1 World Champ
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    I've some data for you:
    The Cairns Private Hospital does NOT have an emergency section.
    It used to but closed at least 5 years ago.

    It is the only alternative hospital in Cairns,CBH being the regions' primary,you've then got the town hospitals:Mareeba,Atherton,Herberton(God's waiting room for cancer sufferers.

    There are a number of outlying areas that have hospitals:Chillagoe,Dimbulah,Forsayth,Georgetown,Croydon..................but they won't help you if you have a major incident that needs treatment NOW,because none of them have resident doctors...........the Royal Flying Doctors are the folk who get called out for that.(They are the only mob I donate to...their work is,quiet obviously,invaluable out here.)

    In reference to the bulk-billing question,interestingly or oddly,depending on yer point of view,the only mob you can get an x-ray from,in Atherton,is Cairns Diagnostic Imaging.
    This mob have 2 other locations,in the Cairns private hospital and at a suburb in Cairns.

    Up until the closure of the local Medicare office(to get your refunds after paying yer $80),you had to pay.
    Now It's bulk-billed,if they could do it now.....why could'nt it have been done then.

    For the record,none of the doctors' surgery's in town offer bulk billing,unless you have an on-going problem that needs constant visits,and even then it's only one surgery(we have 3 in town)that will do it,if you can't afford it(many can't),you have to line up at the local hospital.
     
  19. greg246

    greg246 F1 World Champ
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    That's exactly why people that can afford to pay should pay in order to free up resources for those that are in genuine need
     
  20. IanB

    IanB F1 World Champ
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    Sorry, that is a lesson in ideology, not fact. If we're going to be simplistic, try this:

    The private sector creates wealth. The state sector spends it. Ideally, the two should be balanced such that achievable taxation equals public sector outlays.

    It can be done. There is a table at the back of each edition of The Economist which shows the key indicators of all economies, there are plenty of countries which manage to balance their budgets and have little or no debt, we don't hear much about them because good news doesn't sell newspapers.

    If the size of the state sector exceeds the revenue generated by taxes, the state sector borrows and services this debt using future revenue.

    Over the last 20-ish years, under govts of both flavours, state debt in Europe and the USA expanded to unsustainable levels. A small systemic shock (selling bad personal debt as an investment instrument) tipped these economies into recession, the "GFC". It's not really global btw, e.g. China and India did not go into recession, it's just that western media defines the Globe as USA and Europe.

    The problem is that politics has become too much about the pursuit of power, rather than serving the people. You win elections by promising benefits to people who have an inflated sense of entitlement. Debt can only be wound back by inflicting pain, usually in the form of unemployment, which lowers wage costs. Because govts prefer to avoid pain (in order to hang on to power) they make the problem deeper and longer. That's about where we are today, things are improving but the boom/bust cycle will repeat by the end of the decade.
     
  21. kerrari

    kerrari F1 World Champ
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    Greg, you've got me completely wrong - I agree those who can afford to pay SHOULD be the ones paying. The problem is, the tie up with tax and private health insurance is forcing people into paying for a service which is not available to them - this is the unfair part. And secondly, that money which is being forced into the private health schemes would be better put into the public system which is more equitably distributed. I would have no problem paying more tax rather than squandering it on private health (refer my original post where I said I opted out of the private and paid the 1% - a higher contribution in fact!)

    The bottom line is private health cover is a benefit for big city dwellers - a rort for everyone else.
     
  22. kerrari

    kerrari F1 World Champ
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    The other options is self insurance - put the $4500 pa into a special account each year.
     
  23. greg246

    greg246 F1 World Champ
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    Part of the problem is that monies in the public hospital system is not equitably distributed. It's administered by the states and is just a shambles. Under the previous Labor state government, Hornsby hospital which is in a safe Liberal area and has a huge catchment area was basically ignored and is now run down to the point that it's operating theatres are an unsafe environment. Meanwhile $$$$$$ have been pumped into Blacktown and Campbelltown Hospitals. Has that really improved services? No. For example, the radiology departments are so inefficient that reports are more often than not issued after the patient has been discharged. So basically if there is an important finding on a CT scan that will influence treatment, the opportunity to create a better outcome for the patient is lost.
     
  24. kerrari

    kerrari F1 World Champ
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    Exactly! Greg I think you've misunderstood me as criticising privately supplied services, which I am not. What I'm complaining about is the rort of compulsory private insurance. Pap's is the quintessential case of this. His $4500 has gone stright into the pocket of some multi-national, he's got virtually zero service for his money and none of that $4500 has flowed to his community. Now, if he hadn't been induced into the private 'benefits' scheme, and had contributed via tax, at least some of the money might have made it into his community, and he wouldn't be feeling so ripped off. His private insurance has not reduced the load on his local public facilities one iota, since he has no alternative.

    Compulsory insurance diverts funds out of the tax system (where they can benefit the many) into insurance companies whose only motive is profit (benefitting only some). It can only shift the load when there is an alternative available, and as I said in the beginning of this discussion, the reality is that the alternative is available only to those who happen to live in the major cities.
     
  25. greg246

    greg246 F1 World Champ
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    #1075 greg246, Dec 23, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2012
    Um, Ok, perhaps I misunderstood this :)



    Pap will need to comment on his own situation, but if the confinement was looked after by an Obstetrician directly, then he got his money's worth as Nicole received expert care rather than being looked after by nurses in an antenatal clinic. I'm assuming Nicole was treated as a private patient in a public hospital and the health fund would have paid for the bed directly to the hospital so in fact the money does go back to the community and not offshore.

    Reality also is that 85% of the population lives in major cities and major regional areas, where they can make use of their private health insurance dollar. I don't begrudge them making a profit, we are all in the business of making money, that's just life. Unfortunately there is no perfect system but I think the Labor government removing incentives to stay in private health is short sighted and a vote grab. It is in the interest of the public health system that the private health system thrives and grows
     

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