Nickforza ignition system, is it good ?

#4 25-30 HP?

Wave a dead cat over your Ferrari 3 times at midnight and chant "More H P, More HP, More HP." It will produce the same additional HP that changing an ignition will.

 

I also saw the Nick's system on ebay.

Since I've decided to keep my 308QV longterm, I have an on-paper project going. Purpose--to determine what $5-6K will buy in the way of mods that will yield first, a discernable and measurable performance increase; second, a measurable power increase. I'm not looking for 50 hp, more like a noticeable/useable 15 to 20.

My past experience with electronic ignition was in making the change from the conventional dual-distributor system in my '64 330 2+2, summer 2006. The improvement was clearly discernable the moment I drove away from Norwood Performance:

-Quicker throttle response in all gears, and about 500 more useable RPM. The 209 12 engine was designed to run up to near 6K, but even in good tune it was beginning to gasp around 5300-5400. The electonic sytem made my 5800 self-imposed redline very easy to exceed, instantly.

-Much easier cold-weather starts. It wasn't bad before, but took a little fiddling with the choke to get a good cold start. With the electonic, pump the gas, twist the key, and vroooom!

Verdict: Well worth the $2K parts/labor.

My question...would upgrading to something like the Nick's system make an improvement for my injected 308, already equipped with a breaker-pointless but pre-computer chip system?

I've also seen replacement headers discussed here a lot. Once again, are they worth the money for a performance gain, or just cool to look at and listen to?

My car's desmogged, with pump, etc, completely removed, as is legal in TX for all 25 yr-plus passenger cars. OEM exhaust replaced with new Tubi 2 yrs ago. Cats are gone, replaced with small glasspack mufflers. (Test pipes were way too loud). Yes, the OEM parts removed are enshrined in my Ferrari reliquary.

I don't mind if this is done engine-out, in fact, I'd prefer it as I then can do an engine and compartment detail myself.

Am I aiming into the wind, or thinking reasonably?

Any and all input appreciated!

 

an high energy ignition upgrade especially in a carbureted 308 engine is a fantastic upgrade. The drivability of the car is greatly improved

 

lol, when you do this please post video seriously though you ask a good question and I've always wondered what I could do to my 3.0 qv (within reasonable $) to increase power. To date only options I'm aware of are expensive turbo or supercharging options, I've got nothing against either except the $! I used to have an apartment 15km west of St Tropez before moving over here, do I miss UK? ...NO Do I miss France?.....Yes!!

 

Electronic ignition mainly improves starting and reliability, if you already have a solid state/breakerless ignition, you wont notice much power increase but it will be more reliable.

If you dont have to deal with smog tests, hotter cams would be a good way to improve performance without spending a lot of $$$.

 

If you are dealing with a carb engine, a high energy ignition system will keep your plugs from fouling if you allow the engine to idle too long. Throttle response is improved in the lower end of the rpm band but a spark is a spark at higher rpm. Ignition companies sell you on their product by stating the 'flame front' offered by their giant spark improves ignition due to essentially lighting off the mixture via a dozen matches rather than via one match. This is true, but at high rpm where all the power is made it does not really matter. I have an optical trigger activating a high energy ignition box and wouldn't got back to points under any circumstance, but I have a carb engine and I believe the difference is greater with these than with injected engines.

 

Not sure if this is a rumour or not but I heard if you stick a banana up your tail pipe than it improves reliability. Or was it the cars tail pipe? Maybe someone can correct me? LOL.

 

I did not intend to make you or anybody feel dumb and I apologize if I did that. I believe the Forza ignition is an excellent product but, like any aftermarket ignition system, it cannot increase the HP of the stock engine over the oem ignition unless the oem ignition is defective in some way or mis-adjusted. In that case, the oem ignition could be repaired and accomplish the same performance "increase."

 

That is correct.

However, I will add that a fully computer programmable ignition curve capability ( think aftermarket EFI) may add a few HP in certain RPM ranges if you spend some dyno time fine tuning the motor that a linear point/centrifugal advance curve cannot. This system does not have that capability, that I can discern.

A properly functioning point ignition system will not show any noticeable HP difference vs electronic. Though I would never choose points over electronic, in some form, just due to the hassle of dealing with points.

The only advantage to points if if the end of the world happens and there are massive EMP pulses, your point system will still work,and you can repair it with simple tools, or you could repair it in East BFE if you had a spare point set. Though I don't think I would select an Fcar for my TEOTWAWKI transportation.

Doug

 

It is a great system, I have it on my QV and know several other who use it also, if you decide to go with it I make mounting blocks and cam plugs for your conversion, do a search on here for the electomotive system it should come up. Good luck with your decision, personally I like it.



Wade
www.sportclassiccomp.com
www.308qvregister.com

 

Cheapest way to get a few hp fast it to put in a K&N air filter. We did a dyno day a few years back, and our fearless F-Chat Captain Rob did 2 runs. One with the stock filter, another with the K&N. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think he gained at least 10hp.

The data is buried in the F-Chat archives somewhere, but I'm too lazy to search for it.

EDIT: Ok, I searched. And boy, was I wrong. Rob's rear wheel hp went from 210 to 228. That's a pretty significant increase for $100.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/6532/13916.html

 

That's a good suggestion. Yes, at $100 and do it yourself, cheeep.

10+ yrs ago, I put a K&N on my old BMW 635, and remember reading on BMW boards that they didn't protect as well as OEM against airborne particles, etc. Urban legend? Who knows. I never had problems with it during 30K intown commuting miles on that car.

Anyone have similar experience/knowledge regarding K&N for Ferrari?

Perhaps our fearless Ferrari-fixer James Patterson will see this thread, and toss in his opinion.

 

I installed the Electromotive system from Nick's Forza on my 1978 308 GTS two years ago. it is an excellent, highly reliable system. It was not hard to install, once you understand all the various wiring and figure out how you are going to route things. It is very important that your valve timing is spot on. Obviously, the electronic system is highly accurate, as it is based on a timing rind and magnetic pickup on the crank damper. Making sure that you get the ring set in the correct position at TDC is important. But it is not an overly complex installation, and once it is in the car should run beautifully. As you will tell from another thread, I'm having trouble starting the car lately, but I think that may be my fault. Once she starts, she runs extremely smoothly, accelerates strongly and overall runs much better than with the old points/distributors.

Now, as for more HP, I really can't say. I did not get a "seat of the pants" kick in HP from the modification, but overall, the car just seems to respond much better and idles and runs so much more smoothly. For me, that alone is worth it.

A couple of lessons learned the hard way with the installation:

1. Be sure you get a really good ground established for the system. A weak ground will cause system problems or failure to start.
2. Make sure you use Loctite on the little screws in the timing wheel on the crank damper. Better yet, if possible, drill offset holes into the damper so that the points of the set screws are locked into the wheel. The Loctite is critical, as the screws can back out with vibration. Ask me how I learned that one.
3. Label the wires BEFORE you start installing things to the control unit. Some wires are the same color and it is easy to get them confused. Little sticky paper labels work fine to help sort things.
4. Follow the instructions on insertion of the wires into the connector carefully, and make sure the correct wires are going to the correct spots in the connector assembly.
5. If you are having problems, call Nick. He is exceptionally helpful and extremely knowledgable about these systems, and was a tremendous help with the install over the phone.

Otherwise, go for it, and have fun!!

 

Nick now sells several systems:
http://www.nicksforzaferrari.com/forzaferrariwebsite1_009.htm

Assuming you mean the XDI system he's been supplying for years, I concurr with Dave. It does not have maps, only a single curve defined by 3 engine RPM points. It's a reasonable replacement for a carb'd 2V points system that you want to optimize for a single operating environment such as a track car. It is very simple to install & setup, but it lacks the flexability a mapped system provides for automaticly adapting to multiple environments such as track, street, highway cruising, etc.

The Haltech & MoTec systems Nick is also selling are state of the art mapped systems. You don't have to use the EFI outputs, so can be used on carb'd cars. A plus is if you ever want to upgrade to EFI, the controller will be ready to run the injectors.

 

You had an OEM solid state system, and replaced it with Nick's system?

My QV is an '83, has a breaker-pointless system. I think that was the last year before Ferrari entered the printed-circuit era.

The results of installing an '06-technology pointless system on my 330 2+2 were dramatic, but it had a conventional carbureted 209 engine, dual distributors, points, the whole deal.

No doubt, replacing the OEM ignition system on the QV would bring results by way of 25 years improvement in technology. Hard to visualize, though. It starts and runs perfectly as-is.

 

That would be the way to go, as you can program in erzatz vacuum advance using a manifold pressure sensor. There is a reason the EPA mileage rating sucked on these cars and lack of vacuum advance, either mechanical or programmed, is one of them, having your ignition advanced another 12 degrees at say 2500 RPM and part throttle/cruise (40% MAP), will do wonders for cruise fuel economy.

Doug

 

I agree with Verell and Dave. Had an Euro 85, the basic XDI and other than maybe faster starting there was really not much 'additional' power to report. If you get a better unit with custom curves, perhaps you can eek out a small handful of HP though expect Dyno time to make it happen. Verell is also right, if you plan to change to EFI, THEN the better systems make sense. Otherwise, keep what you have imho.

 

GM and Chrysler tested and rejected the KN filters for allowing to many fine particulates through, they thought the engine wear would be unacceptable on motors they had to warranty for X miles. This info came to me a retired GM and later Chrysler production plant manager.

Doug

 

Urban legend no longer. Thanks.

In what year did this take place?

 

I will ask and find out, though it would have had to be before 2003 when he retired.

Doug

 

Exactly. Use of K&N filters show higher silicon particle counts in used oil analysis (UOAs) leading to higher wear metal counts. Yeah, they let in more air (HP), but let in other junk too. How much is that horsepower worth to you?

 

From 1998:

"At the request of the owners, we released K&N filter elements on the Viper "ACR" package; picked up about 4hp on a 460hp engine, got 6 more with smooth (instead of convoluted) intake hoses from the air cleaner to the throttle bodies. Our OEM tests showed the K&N's to be effective filters when clean and freshly oiled, but within about 50 hours' running time the filtration efficiency dropped off markedly, and they were nowhere near as effective as stock paper filter media thereafter, and didn't meet OEM particle size filtration requirements. I'd stick with OEM filter elements, as I'd be more concerned about effective filtration than picking up a couple of wide-open-throttle horsepower." --John Hinckley, Viper production manager.

From: "How to build Horsepower vol. II" (Vizard pg. 6) here is their data on popular filters. (Circa 1995 technology)

*Airflow is cubic feet per minute at 1.5" H2O drop.

K&N = 880*
Motorcraft = 420*
K-Mart = 300*
Uni-Filter = 290*
Hastings = 220*
AC = 190*
Fram = 190*
Amsoil = 180*

That said, this is in new condition, the K&N sharply falls off as its elements become blocked. So the test numbers are impressive if you serviced your air element every 25 hours and did not mind the poor filtration quality.


From Me, based on my research and experience dyno testing:
On a typical, good paper element, they flow about 5-6 CFM per square inch of outside circumference at a 6" H2O drop (that is about a 1.5% drop in air flow over unrestricted, or about 1.5% HP loss also), so measure your element height and multiply by outside circumference and by 6 CFM and that is what it will flow before air flow loss becomes an issue.

That little 3 liter V8 doesn't need a lot of CFM even at 7500 rpm, somewhere around 400 CFM. The stock carbed paper element is about 1.75" by 51", so multiply those by 6 CFM and you get 459 CFM flow on a clean element.

Clean being the secret, a dirty AF may only flow 2/3 that much.

Doug

Doug

 

Look guys, i had done OIL ANALYSIS from lab and using the K&N versus stock air filter shows elevated silicone levels. IT IT NOT WORTH IT to use a K&N imho. And yes, both filers were new. Lemme see if i still have a scan of the oil analysis. i regularly had my fluids checked as tracked the car too. Alas, can't find the K&N one yet below is a sample analysis.

On a side note, during one of the analysis we detected the change to Mobile 1 0W-40 formula as it appears they reduced ZDDP, and so changed oils to Castrol German 0W-30.

Because of analysis, i ONLY used the K&N at track events and NOT on the dirty street/public roadways.
Image Unavailable, Please Login