Nickforza ignition system, is it good ? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Nickforza ignition system, is it good ?

Discussion in '308/328' started by oliv928, Aug 13, 2009.

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  1. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
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    Aug 3, 2002
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    I have the XDI-2 system that I bought from Nick, and like it a lot. It's fully tunable/mappable via laptop, but it's driving my 308QV's ignition to support the 350 supercharged horsepower and associated fast rev-ups it does. For most cars, the regular XDI system is adeqaute.
     
  2. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    Thanks....you didn't leave anything out of the answer!

    1998 was in high-usage days for the 635, no wonder I came across BWW-board posts advising caution with K&N.
     
  3. GeoMetry

    GeoMetry Formula Junior

    Apr 14, 2008
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    I spoke to Nick about an overheating problem (I was interested in one of his aluminum radiators) and he stated that installing one of his electronic ignition kits would make the engine run cooler. So, if true, there is another benefit of the system. I love the idea but I was wondering if someone could verify/explain that?
     
  4. AZDoug

    AZDoug Formula 3

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    If you can program ersatz vacuum advance into the curve based on manifold vacuum/MAP, it will take a heat load off the cooling system. This will require a MAP sensor.

    Doug
     
  5. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
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    and the XDI-2 rather than the XDI.
     
  6. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    I had my radiator brass-recored a year ago, car now runs demonstrably cooler, but still not cool enough for me...100F temps here in the summer.

    Thanks for posting this info. It's over my head, but James at Norwood will comprende.
     
  7. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    Nick's radiator should do the trick then imho.
     
  8. 328turbo

    328turbo Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2009
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    nyc
    if you want to make real power, dump the ancient k-jetronic system and install a more modern digital fuel injection system like the aem, motec, or haltec units. you would also have to change the wiring harness and drill out the bosses for the modern fuel injectors. -but this is a good thing as modern fuel injectors are more universal and come in many,many different outputs that can be custom tailored to your application.
    my car has a haltec unit, its an older one and really more geared for all out power rather than everyday driving. so its also kind of a dinosaur, but 20 years later it still works great. the newer ones are so much more advanced and programable its ridiculous!!!

    with DFI, if you remove your emissions equipment you'll be able to tune and maximize power for any given fuel quality, displacement, and modifications. if you have the xtra cash to spend, then go with a turbocharger or supercharger to maximize your FI's potential(has anyone here ever heard of a Ferrari with nitrous???). my 328 is pumping out more prancing-horse power than any factory Ferrari V8 short of a $600k F-40 or $200k F430(i have a single turbo and no intercooler on a hi-compression engine)!


    recently, i went over the wiring harness, hoses, and vacuum lines in my car. i found a lot of oxidized connections, bad grounds, crimped wires, vacuum leaks, dried up hoses, quick-fix jobs, and sloppy maintenance work -where underhood equipment was wrongly re-installed.
    YES, THIS CAR WAS PREVIOUSLY MAINTAINED BY THE FERRARI DEALER NETWORK!!!!
    Ferrari mechanic does not necessarily mean good mechanic!
    the sad thing is that it was more than one Ferrari dealer that had mis-diagnosted this car in the past (they both advertise on this page).
    i had the car dyno'd previously so these problems didnt really affect peak power, 4hp short of what Norwood claimed 20 years ago. i thought my car had bad street manners because of the nature of its modifications, but now the difference in driveability and street performance is night and day!! it feels like a different car. this vehicle is way more responsive and its idle is sexysilkysmooth @ 930rpm & 20lbs of vacuum. now i want to put the vehicle on the dyno again and re-tune. i know i have more power hidden in this engine.
    regardless of mileage, these cars are 20+ years old. so go over your engine compartment. you may find some performance that has been lost due to age and/or poor quality of previous repairs&maintenance. what difference will you find in a new ignition if the old one isnt capable of performing to its peak efficiency?

    the total operation of a new DFI would probably cost $3000-3500 USD professionally installed. (turbos or supercharging would be substantially more)
    but its worth it. with a good tuner, the car will have more power, better street manners, and get better gas mileage than the stock FI.
    -NOTHING IS WORSE THAN A SLOW FERRARI!!!!!

    BTW i also have the K&N air filter. this engine sucks in air so hard that the stock one twists and contorts inside of the air box. the k&n has a wire mesh around it that prevents this from happening.
     
  9. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    #34 jsa330, Aug 17, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
    I suggested aluminum at the time I had the brass recore done, answer was that results weren't worth the 2x$$ for a custom buildup. Didn't know about Nick's Forza then.

    Still on cooling, my car has 328 fans installed; next step is to go to an "industrial-strength" ultra high-CFM setup.

    Lots of good suggestions on this thread, thanks to everyone here.

    I really like my 308 and want to keep it, but it needs more low-end jump and snappier overall performance. Not looking for a dragstrip beast.

    From I what see here and on other threads, add:

    -Digital ignition as detailed by 328 turbo.

    I've discussed this in the past with Norwoods, they pretty much told me the same things. Adding digital to my '64 330 produced literally dramatic effects.

    -Aftermarket headers to replace OEM.

    -Hotter street-grind cams.

    -Tubi in place, new 2/2008, small custom-fab glass pack mufflers in place of test pipes. Car's already desmogged, equipment & cats boxed away.

    Undoubtedly, doing all of this would require engine removal, fine with me. I could get aluminum cam covers polished and cleanup engine & compartment, get numbers, replace stickers, etc. Another "might as well do it" would be a new clutch/pressure plate assembly.

    I had a major-plus done at Norwoods the same time Tubi was installed. They found and replaced lots of concealed and time-deteriorated items.
     
  10. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    Plan on spending at least $10k... more like $15k+. Been there, done that, gave up just short of doing the big $$$ items.

    You need:

    XDI2
    Supercharger
    You MIGHT need better cooling/radiator, try run cooler spark plugs first.

    Note: you might be near the limit of the stock clutch, yet should be fine unless you like launching a lot and tracking the car often.
     
  11. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    I'll check with Norwoods and see what they say.

    I have an extra-nice, sorted, debt-free car that lacks nothing but a little more kick.

    For guessing purposes...spend $12k on performance upgrades, no supercharging. That would put me way underwater, but so what if it does.

    For a huge performance jump, I'd have to sell the 308 at a loss (bad market timing), then add another $60K minimum to get into a condition-comparable 550, more for a Boxer or C/4, all with $$ ongoing routine maintenance needs, assuming I got a solid car to begin with.

    The classic rock/hardplace for me.
     
  12. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Dec 1, 2000
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    Yes, I tried the K&N and the dyno showed a 18 HP jump, but I haven’t used a K&N for over 5 years. As mentioned it lets more dirt in and also drops off in performance quicker than a normal filter. Who cares about 10-15 HP on a 1986 Ferrari, I care more about a $30k engine rebuild.
     
  13. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

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    #38 luckydynes, Aug 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

    Here's a pic of my setup which now has close to 550 hrs of run time on it. I did this with the intention of supercharging or turbocharging but I keep getting side tracked ... plus the car is pretty fast with the naturally aspirated mod's I've completed ... see video of car staying with new Porsche Turbo and Ferrari 360 on track :).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9dNg-dAEBw&feature=channel

    When I designed this system I wanted to come up with something that required no permanent mod's to the intake which is why my adapter bungs just screw in to the intake. I've sold a couple of these setups for $250-$500 depending on fuel rail, etc. I run mine with a Haltech E6x and also run my 8 motorcycle coil on plugs with the same box ... I don't think there's a more cost effective way to go and I keep looking for a reason to upgrade to sequential but doesn't really seem necessary. I'm working on a Suzuki Hayubusa throttle conversion also ... maybe once that's done I'll think about the turbo thing again. I ran my stock dizzy's with my Haltech E6x before installing the EFI. This gave the ability of programmable advance curves etc. which I thought really livened up the stock low compression setup.

    Regarding temperatures ... that extra overflow tank I installed keeps my car completely topped off and 20-30 degrees cooler depending on how hard I'm pushing ... is there a good reason the factory did not install one?

    Cheers,

    Sean
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. 328turbo

    328turbo Formula Junior

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    #39 328turbo, Aug 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    fantastic video, Sean
    if you were turbo, that 360 would never of passed you, haha ;)

    this is what i am talking about, 8-series Ferrari that can back themselves up!
    i think its awesome that you were able to convert without drilling out the bosses
    the best thing about the EFI is that it could constantly be re-cali'd for continuous upgrades. from simple aftermarket exhaust kits to internal engine mods, forced induction, and alternate fuels!

    i really like the idea of the oversized expansion tank!
    but i have to admit, the stock 328 cooling system has done an adequate job for me so far.
    i am stable @ 195 before during and after spooling up tha screw
    my computer is the original E6. like i originally posted, a dinosaur.

    i am hoping to have my car set up to test and run some time trails this coming spring.
    here is my baseline dyno test so far(this is power at the wheels, not the crank).
    -& keep us posted on the throttle bodies!!!!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. 328turbo

    328turbo Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2009
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    oh yeah, i like the placement of the fuel pressure regulator and TPS as well, real clean looking and easy to get to.
     
  16. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    Sean,

    The way I see it, your second expansion tank....

    A. Is an off the shelf item

    B. Catches the overflow from the first tank via hose

    C. Allows this overflow to cool via movement thru air and then dissipation thru plastic of second tank

    D. reintroduces it to the circulating coolant in the system

    Am I correct, and if so, how is the cooled overflow reintroduced?

    Thanks,

    Scott
     
  17. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    In a 308??? We dyno'ed a TR and did the filter swap and the gains were maybe 5 hp. Your gain of 18 seems really high, did you also try no filter at all on the dyno as maybe your stock filter was dirty?
     
  18. frankty

    frankty Rookie

    Oct 5, 2005
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    Many years ago I put in Nick's ignition upgrade and loved it. Pretty easy to do, the hardest part was to find room for the coil packs. I would definitely consider a CoP (Coil over plug) system first to avoid that hassle.

    Four years ago I started the EFI upgrade with the Electromotive "kit" (some engineering required ...) It took a few months, but I was just picking away at it. It's now been in use for nearly 4 years and nothing has gone wrong with it other than what I've mis-programmed and an occasional connector problem.
    This project was NOT easy, but was a lot of fun. In the end what was most surprising was not the extra power (and no, I've never dyno'd it) but the "drive-ability." The power band is wider and it has a lot more low-end torque. I have a very loud Stebro exhaust as well and try to be "neighbor friendly" in my subdivision. The car has no problems smoothly tooling along in 3rd or 4th at 2000rpm, and will accelerate up without a shudder.

    Nick's web site used to point to my install page, don't know if that's still the case.

    check out:
    http://www.employees.org/~fty

    cheers,
    - Frank
     
  19. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

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    Basically because I don't have 2 qts of air circulating with the coolant.

    Imagine this ... I flush my coolant and put in a complete 4 gallons. On the first warm up/spin I see about 1 qt purge and get sucked back into the tank overnight ... this would have been lost. For the next few weeks I don't flog really hard in the hot weather ... generally see my water temp about 175 f unless I get the oil hot, and sometimes only see about 2 pints (1/2 of what first purged) into the tank ... the water always gets sucked back in instead of air.

    Then last week I went up in the mountains on a baking hot day ... about a 3000 ft climb in 8 miles. I saw my water get to 220 and so did the oil. I had 2 qts in the expansion tank ... which would've been lost ... all of it got sucked back into the system that night.

    If I didn't have the tank on ... and I didn't for 15+ years, it means I'd have 2 qts of air sitting in the system when I start up from cold. As I stated on mellow drives I would not see this much expansion which means theoretically all this air is being circulated around. When I'd take off my radiator cap hoping I would see the 1.1" or whatever the manual says distance to the top of the water it would always be lower and I'm specualting would uncover the return from the tank ... letting more air into the system.

    Just some thoughts/experiences of mine ... make any sense? I guess if a guy was to let his car completely warm up before driving out of the garage so that the air is expanded out of the system MAYBE this would not happen .... speculating of course. I took my cap off a couple days ago (engine completely cold/standing overnight of course) and the coolant was "overflowing" ... a good feeling to me.

    cheers
     
  20. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

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    Where you been all my life ... everytime I say a 308 can be fast I get kicked in the balls here ;) .... thought about throwing some alcohol fuel in there and just changing the map ... then there's nitrous (posted some pics on here of my setup but I don't want to blow my motor up that quick :)) ... that motor has 12:1 compression.

    EFI opens up so many doors for "tinkering".

    cheers
     
  21. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    Amen.
     
  22. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran
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    Thanks for again replying!

    I think I get it...

    -Start out with the standard liquid measure and mixture of coolant for particular car.

    -On reaching a certain temperaure (212F?), the overflow coolant from the first tank drains into the second, which has no external drain.

    -On stopping, parking, and long cool-down, the overflow coolant gets sucked back into the first tank and the main system, leaving only air in the second.

    How/why the sucking effect takes place, I don't understand.

    -The benefit of the overflow tank is that it traps air, which has a lower expansion temperature than coolant (?), allowing the car to start and run with only coolant in the main system. It also prevents loss of coolant.

    Having coolant only circlating until boiling or overflow temp is reached makes metal-to-coolant heat transfer proportionately more efficient, thereby delaying the onset of boiling point and overflow.

    Never was too good with physics, am I following correctly?

    The reasons I'm asking you in such detail:

    A. I live in an area (TX), that is very hot, 90F+, several months of the year, with temps a steady 90-100F+ in July and August. Car runs with water temp needle straight-up in 80F and below weather, then heats in proportion to ambient temperature.

    I'm an easy driver, don't hotrod my car alot, but do take it for the occasional full-throttle blast. It starts and runs perfectly.

    B. I've already taken standard measures to get cooler running, and have seen some results:

    -My car demonstrably needed a radiator recore, which I did last year in brass. Had I known about Nick's, I would have ordered an aluminum one from him.

    -It also had a 328 fan setup when I got it, indicating prior hot-running concerns.

    -Cooling system checks out perfectly. Norwood Performance went to the extent of probing coolant paths for foriegn objects that might impede flow.

    -Themostat has been replaced. Water pump's fine; Norwood replaced standard blades with ones that would pull harder.

    If adding a second expansion tank, as you did, would indeed bring observable cooling results with no downside, I'd like to do it.
     
  23. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    dude, that was like 7 years ago. I don't remember. :)
     
  24. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    #49 enjoythemusic, Aug 18, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2009
    Thanks dude. :)

    Though i think you should say 7 years and two (or it is three) Fcars ago. Somehow i doubt the car is not beneath the overhand attached to the trailer like we saw back then ;)
     
  25. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

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    #50 luckydynes, Aug 18, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2009

    cheers ... I'd like to hear the logic/engineering reason behind why Ferrari didn't do it to begin with besides the fact cars were marketed only to ***s :).

    seems so basic but please explain old timers/"guys that do it for a living", edit: left out Fchat consultants


    thanks,

    Sean
     

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