To answer your questions, yes, the plenum needs to be removed and machining is required. In addition, the thottle body needs to be modified to add a thottle plate position sensor, (or you can replace it with an aftermarket unit). Fuel lines need to be constructed to deliver the fuel to the injectors, an additional fuel pump is recommended, and of course, the TEC unit needs to be wired and programmed. (And I'm sure I left out several items). When I did the conversion, I worked directly with Electromotive (I did not know Nick at that time) and had to do everything from scratch. It took about 125 hours including reading the manuals several times. However, the car fired up the first time I cranked it over. IMHO, it was well worth the effort.
This package combined with high compression, Chris's ITBs, flowed heads, and decent hot street cams seems to be the way for a 3L 2v 300bhp street engine. A racing engine could probably get into the 330-340+ range. Exciting stuff.
Pad, Thanks for your time estimate, but I'm not sure I want to spend 125 hours. I would hope Nick has more of a plug-n-go setup, with maybe a plenum machining service. Or, better yet, a way to not machine the plenum. I don't think I could bring myself to machine the plenum at this time.
The current EFI setup I have for Nick does not require any machining. the runners and manifold stay put, for all versions of the 3x8. the early basic CIS throttle bodies do need to be modified or swapped for the later micro switched TB's. the fuel lines to the injectors are also part of the package Nick sells, so you'd only need to run a line from the filter to a regulator then to the one fitting that feeds the rest of the injectors.
Scott, do you have any pictures of the injectors in place? BTW, what size injectors are you using on a stock 308QV engine?
Here is a rendering of the basic set up & a couple other pics, one of the throttle body extension & one of the basic Tec GT kit. As Scott said, the optional injector kit includes the main injector lines lines, injectors, injector bosses & does not require any machining & saves allot of labor & totally reversible without destroying any OEM parts. With respect to injectors on a stock engine, I usually use 26 lbs, it also depends if you are running sequential or not or high or low impedance & if you plan to do any updates latter on. Every customer has slightly different requirements so we try to put together packages for each individual customer. The Tec GT will not operate sequential on 8 cylinders but is allot less money than the Tec 3R, which will operate sequential. The Tec GT has been a great set up as it is easy to install compared to many other systems & the car is up & running pretty quickly & for a basic stock street car, sequential is not required in my opinion. You will see a 30 plus HP increase & great driveability. For those who do not know the differences, the XDI is just ignition. the tec GT is full engine management, no sequential in 8 cylinder format & the Tec 3R is full sequential. I also supply a start up program for the Tec GT & Tec 3 R which will save some labor time along with technical support as we have done for years when you purchase a system from Nicks Forza Ferrari. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Does the throttle body extension and fuel injector setup work on the 328 also? Why is the T.B. extender needed? To provide clearance for the throttle position sensor or for E.F.I. injector?
The MAF would be upstream (before the throttle body - as in being between the air filter and the throttle body). Or maybe I'm mixing up the definition of upstream and downstream??
I imagine it's for the air flow sensor which has to be downstream of the TB No, it was my bad. The TEC3 uses a MAP sensor, which needs to be downstream... Brain was not fully engaged before putting fingers in gear. <grin> TEC3 also uses a MATS (temp) sensor. This may be it's home. Although, it can go either side of the TB. Rick
You're probably right although I wouldn't think it's a good location due to heat soak. Most/all? cars I've seen have it mounted somewhere before the throttle plate and mounted into the plastic air intake tubing, reducing heat transfer.
so, TEC GT + XDI = new injection + new ignition = 30 more HP + better engine response + better reliability ? Right ? That for $3000 ? + easy and quick install ? Is the mod easy to uninstall in case of selling the car to a purist ? If so, I am very interested.
I do not see how you could get 30hp from these modifications over a properly running stock system. Other, very knowledgeable people here have done these type of mods. AND installed throttle bodies for each cylinder, greatly improving engine breathing, and came up with a 30~35 hp increase. By the way, you would not use the TEC GT and the XDI together. TEC GT is ignition and injection management. XDI is ignition management only.
$3000 sounds quite reasonable and if you are not worried about originality then the parts you remove can probably be sold to cover a good portion of the $3000. I am pretty much sold. Sounds like a great winter project.
Looking at the photo it seems the EFI injectors don't go down very deep at all into the intake manifold runners (as do the CIS injectors). Seems to me someone brought up this concern a long time ago when discussing EFI. Don't remember the exact details but I think they were worried about the spray pattern and distance from valve heads. Of course the drawing of those injectors may just be for illustrative purposes and not represent the final product.
You want the injector aimed at the valve and without obstruction. Not sure you can do that using the CIS manifold and a short injector.
the injector fits into the manifold in such that the pintle is just at the mouth of the intake runner. the injector does not intrude into the air stream, the spray patterns available are pencil and narrow cone both of which will work nicely without interference from the manifold. No matter what moving to an EFI system is leaps and bounds beyond the CIS and gains will be noticed. Is this the best setup? of course not, to do that you'd have to re-design the entire intake from runners to manifold, but why stop there? the heads need massive improvement too. it's a cascade effect, and in the end a simple non-invasive EFI is good compromise to full blown custom work whether you choose Nicks or another one. moving to a fully programmable ignition and fuel system will allow for a finer resolution and improved efficiency, adding in the increase in air to the engine due to the lack of the CIS metered air restriction plate will increase the TQ and thus HP of the engine.
Hi Eluk 328. I posted dyno results on the previous pages on a 308 injected 2 valve & there is a approx 30 hp difference from stock k jet & Marelli ignition to TEC GT. Some of you asked for dyno numbers & I presented them, it is that simple. You do not need to use the TEC GT & XDI together. The XDI is only for ignition (which is what this thread was about) The TEC GT does both ignition & fuel injection, you do not need to buy or use an XDI if you purchase a TEC GT. Here are a few TEC3R & some TEC GT videos. I have been doing fuel injection & ignition mods on these cars since 1996 & have had very excellent results. I also sell Motec, Haltec, EMS, Wolf & Autronic but I find the Electromotive units to be the easiest for DIY Ferrari owners. http://www.youtube.com/user/NicksForzaFerrari#p/u/7/fqWjwMC2de4 http://www.youtube.com/user/NicksForzaFerrari#p/u/5/8GbeoqQreTI http://www.youtube.com/user/NicksForzaFerrari#p/u/3/Mj629Cr1V6g http://www.youtube.com/user/NicksForzaFerrari#p/u/4/i_MhmsdFWvo
Nick, Scott, I've read all you stuff with interest and after talking with our own engine builders, I'm a believer on your 30+ HP gains. Maybe its a matter or ageing or just that we have the "go fast" cars for the track when that bug bites... I'm more interested in the driveability and I know EFI is the way to go for that. Have you run any mileage tests on your test mules? I've seen the factory stickers from my car with CIS and it was an abysmal 16mpg... and probably close to true. Hopefully you have some good numbers there as well. Rick
Rick, I can get you the BSFC for a given load/rpm and that would be accurate for a steady state cruise. which would also be the way those MPG are calculated as well, although I believe they do them at 30mph in top gear so it's not accurate to real world conditions. not to mention the driving style of the driver will be determining factor. Let me dig that up off the maps from the dyno runs and get back to this post.
Scott, I wish those numbers where true. I can see it now at the pump. "How much you want?" "Fill her up my good man, i'm going on a long drive"
Hi Nick, I didn't see the dyno results previously. Coming directly from you I don't doubt this number. I had the idea this might be wishful thinking on the part of someone else. Would this approx. 30 hp apply to the 4v QV and the 328? I'm still curious why other people that went the same route, more or less, but with individual throttle bodies would not get more than 30~35hp then if these mods. are good for about 30hp. Anyway, if it applies to the 328 also then I would be interested. Just the thought of coming up with a good modified throttle system on the 328 does not appeal to me (much easier/simpler/cleaner on a 2v 308). And... I do kind of like the idea of keeping the original intake plenum on a 328.
"Anyway, if it applies to the 328 also then I would be interested. Just the thought of coming up with a good modified throttle system on the 328 does not appeal to me (much easier/simpler/cleaner on a 2v 308). And... I do kind of like the idea of keeping the original intake plenum on a 328." Ditto - I would also be interested re the 328 if it's an honest 30HP increase and meets the criteria above...
I hate threads that end without information. I know this is an old thread, I dont want to start a new one. I own a 328, is there any benefit to install the XDI Ignition system for my car? or its just for the cab 308s?
