Nick's 308 to 4.0 conversion

I read about it yesterday. I was fasinated by the idea of having my 308 converted to the 4000 cc. It would be a lot of fun... But $US20,000 really??
I didn't know that it cost another 308 to convert. If then, I think I can live with my stock 308 with reliability better...

 

There was a thread a while back....A search should turn it up. At that time it didn't seem like there was a finished engine. There maybe now, or maybe I mis understood what I was reading. There were no dyno numbers available, and without that there is no way to say what $20k would buy you.

I have seen dyno numbers on turbo'd cars that are very impressive for about the same money complete and delivered. My engine is supercharged (a lot of my labor, but only about $8k in parts) and makes about 520hp (425rwhp on the dyno).

 

Maybe we get Nick and Mark together for a 4.0 turbo?

 

I am very grateful for the continued interest in the four-liter engine conversion. This project is the joint effort of Steve Demirjian of Race Engine Development, Nick Sciana, and myself. This is not an unproven technology. Steve is currently featured in the December edition of “Corvette Fever Magazine” where a LS1 engine receives the same treatment as the Ferrari 308. Go take a look.

In addition, Steve has successfully modified several Viper and Honda blocks.

The modified Viper engines produce upwards of 1,000 HP!!!…and they are extremely reliable. The Chevy LS1 is taken from 350 to 428 cid. Yes, these blocks can even be super or turbo charged.

Steve is a frequent guest on several LS1 tech sites. There have been some on this site that have questioned the feasibility such a project. Please note that Steve has pioneered this technology in conjunction with Darton Sleeves. The Darton, MID Honda blocks have been engineered by Steve. Not much is critically different in the way these blocks are modified from the Ferrari.

For those that are interested, the four-liter engines have a new crank that has been machined from billet and includes custom titanium rods. Each sleeve is individually machined to match each bore. The craftsmanship involved to prepare of these engines far exceeds that of the stock motor. The decks are absolutely true and have been milled with the sleeves in place. Custom MLS gaskets have been manufactured for this engine to improve gasket sealing. To insure that all alloy components are stable, each are cryogenically treated. The front timing cover has been re-engineered to accommodate superior bearings. In fact, each mechanical system has been evaluated and those that have been prone to failure have been upgraded.

The stock heads have been flow benched and unfortunately they are very dated. That is a very polite way of saying that they are terrible. The heads are the single greatest limiting factor. For example a stock Honda will substantial out flow the 2 value Ferrari head. We have consulted with a very reputable after market head manufacture about creating a new four value head for the 2-valve block. It is very doable. The only downside is the $100,000 r&d cost. I simply don’t have that kind of money to invest at this moment. The solution is to radically re-configure the stock heads. They are much improved. Steve has also done this work.

For the record, the four-liter engine is 4.083 liters, or an increase of 1.154 liters. To manage this increased in heat, the cooling system has been completely redesigned. We have a new custom aluminum radiator that fits in the stock location without any retro fitting. We have recast the water pump to receive bulletproof seals and bearings. The impellor is now of a scroll type design. The fans have been upgraded with better motors and blades. The fans also fit in the stock location. All of this has been done in conjunction with Evans Cooling. Each of these products are available for the stock 308 through Nick. The upgraded cooling components tremendously improve the cooling system.

Because of our obsession with reliability the stock vibration dampener has been trashed in favor a state of the art clutch type dampener. Those experts that we have consulted have confirmed our fears. The stock unit does virtually nothing. This is particularly important because of the flat crank design. The upgraded dampener is designed to respond to each pulse transmitted through the crank. The result is increased harmonic dampening and greater reliability of the short block. A direct replacement dampener is now available through Nick for the stock 308, as well. It is also lighter than the stock unit and looks really cool.

This post is getting fairly long so I will close by saying that the engine is very close to being produced for sale. Dyno numbers will be released at that time. There isn’t time to detail the changes to the fuel management, cams, and clutch. That is equally cool stuff.


Mark Lewis

 

Wow.
Damn. And I thought I spent too much on my engine.
What does this jewel cost? Things become pretty cost ineffective after about $20K, but what an engine!

In awe,
rt

 

Hmmm, so basically the ENTIRE setup out the door is around 20k you say? Interesting. Now if you started out with a 3.2 block, which I assume has better flow naturally in its heads, would there be a difference?

Side note, what kind of work do you think you could do with a OBDII BMW 2v 5.4 V12..

 

Do I understand correctly that the flat crank is preserved with this upgrade?

 

Thank you for the interest in the 4-liter engine project. I trust that you all are having a great Christmas.

Flat Crank:

The crank in the 4-liter engine is a flat crank. Total displacement will be about .2 of liter less than that of the new 430 Modena. Pictures of the crank are available on Nick’s web site. It is beautiful piece. There are only a couple companies that Steve would trust do the job right. At first glance it looks very much like the stock crank. The stock crank has a 71 mm stroke, while our engine has an 82 mm stroke. The engine is still over square in design with a good rod ratio. The new crank fits in the existing block without modification and has the same size main journals.

It weighs just about the same as the stock unit, but the rods and piston are substantially lighter. In my opinion the titanium rods are absolutely beautiful. The first time I held them in my hand, I was completely blown away by how light they are.

328 and QV:

I am kicking myself for not picking up a good 328 core last summer. It is everybody’s intention to do that engine next. It should have been done concurrently. We have not flow tested the 4-valve heads yet. The 4 valve heads should be much better. It will be interesting to see where this heads shake out in comparison with more contemporary designs.

Cost:

The cost of the 4-liter will be what it will be, but the products developed will be of benefit to anybody who is rebuilding or upgrading their engines. For the life of me, I can't understand anybody would not want to use Steve Demirjian to blueprint their short block regardless of the bore and stroke combination. The guy is simply amazing.

When the 4-liter goes to market the re-contoured port design will be digitalized. Subsequent 2 valve heads will be CNC'ed.

An example of the other products that will be available to everyone is the water pump. The original pump is undersize and marginal at best. OEM pump housings are cast out of a lower grade of aluminum. We have contracted with third parties to develop a pattern so that we can cast our own housings. Our casting appear stock except the aluminum looks better. They are very similar in quality to that which you can find in the aftermarket for a performance engine. The castings are of very high quality and should last the life of the engine.

How many of you have had to replace your water pumps at about 30,000 mile? There is a reason. The bearings and seals will fail. Our upgraded bearings and seals are a proven combination. It may interest you to know that those that we consulted on the cooling system have estimated that stock water pump will max out at about 4,000 rpms. That is scary since redline is must higher. The paddle wheel design is inefficient and prone to cavitation. Our water pump uses a scroll type impeller. This next fact will not help you sleep at night…the stock impeller is about the same size as that of a Pinto. Yes the very humble Ford Pinto. In talking with some of our engineers I learned that the 308-water pump bears a striking resemblence to that of some vintage British sports cars. When these cars are taken to the track they are subject to overheating and blown head gaskets. The solution is an upgrade that is amazing similar to our new 308-water pump.

Each component that we have upgraded has a story. It is not my intention to burden you with the minutia of our journey, however I will attempt to answer your questions. I am sure that in time both Steve and Nick will also post 4-liter information on this site.

 

Please accept my apologizes, I inadvertently stated that Steve Demirjian was featured in the December 2004 issue of “Corvette Fever Magazine”, when in fact it was the January 2005 issue. It is currently on the bookshelves of many stores.

Merry Christmas

Mark Lewis

 

Here are some 4-liter Pictures
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Here are a few more pics.
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I am interested in its normal "driveablity" so to speak. One thing I adore about my 328 (and hated about my NSX) is the clutch is so user friendly and easy to use. How is the car with the new clutch?

 

Again, I am in awe.
That thing stands to twist so much torque that you may never really use first gear. That or get a set of re-ratio'd drop gears or differential. And I'd guess the clutch would need a bit as the right honorable gentleman from Maryland alludes.
I mean, depending on the cam, this thing is easy almost 400 hp or more and I'm guessing 300+ ft-lbs of torque. I think you've almost max'd out the stock transmission with this incredible motor.

Wow - my dream engine: 4 liters, 4 valves and 4 X 44DCNFs with dual flow through exhausts. 370 hp, 300+ ft-lbs of torque: The simple elegance, the sound and the glory.

 

Nothing a set of nice sticky 375 or 385s cannot handle.

But seriously now, I really want this, I just fear its usability is going to suffer. Right now, traffic is not a problem really for me. Sure its annoying, but I can manage without much of an affair. (and it turns out to be one of the few times I try deciphering the old radio controls, I still don't know what half the buttons do...)

Now if I was driving something like this, could I really manage without cursing in 4 or 5 languages? If anyone who has been around Baltimore knows, we have traffic most of the daytime.

Thus as Dr. Evil brings up, in addition to what clutch changes you do, what trany and differential changes are done?

 

"That's DOCTOR Evil. I didn't go to Evil Medical School for 6 years to be called Mister, thank you very much"

 

Corrected, your evilness.
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My first blower motor made 304 rwhp and 250 rw ft-lb torque, at 18 % loss that is about 370hp and 305 ft-lb at the crank, so right about the range you're talking about. I put about 15k very rough miles on that set-up and the trans never bothered, everything was happy. And at that power, with sticky 285s, 1st gears was still required for a good fast launch….when the torgue gets over 400 ft-lb 1st gear is for idling around a parking lot

For the clutch I used a heavier pressure plate and a kelvar disk and it seemed about bullet proof too. Very easy to drive, but honestly hard to hold to the floor in traffic.

I’m guessing this monster engine is getting one on Nick’s twin disk clutches???
It shouldn’t need a very heavy pressure plate to handle the torque. I was a bit nervous about it being grabby or chatterly so I pass on it but I’d sure love to hear from someone who has driven one.

I now have a tilton carbon-carbon. The pedal is very light, it doesn't grab but there is a bit of chatter if I'm not carfull, not bad though over-all...and the light pedal is a dream in traffic compared to the heavy one I had or even the stock clutch.

 

Nice pictures and workmanship,
but I don't really see a solution to the two major problems inherent in the 4 liter conversion.
Head flow, and liner heat.

Having investigated such a conversion a few years back by the two guys in the US that were building big bore 308 engines, those were the two big problems.

Without major money thrown into the heads, the flow is a problem.
And even with a pocket full of cash put into the 308 heads,
they still do not flow enough to support a 4 liter pump to it's full potential.

The other issue was heat.
They found that they had to lower the bore size because of the heat issues with the liners in the block, to under 4 liters for the engine to survive any length of time.
I just don't see how the couple of little cooling rings cut into your liners will take care of this problem, no matter what radiator is used.

While I applaud your efforts,
let's face it, there are other more cost effective ways to increase the performance of a 30+ year old design engine.
And even then, you still have to deal with the rest of the car being a 30+ year old design.

It's just my 2 cents, but to me in makes more sense to enjoy the 308 for what it is.
A timeless beauty that doesn't have to go 200 mph to be enjoyed.
Want a faster better handling Ferrari, buy a used 355.

Good Luck!

 

That was my main concern too...although I have a 2v xr750 engine bored and stroked to 860cc. It makes 95 rwhp (so maybe 110 crank) at 8600 rpm and starts to drop at about 9000. 4 of them would be 3440cc and make 440hp.

The valve and port sizes are the same as a 308 as far as I can tell, it should be possible to make the heads flow for numbers like that. I get 148 cfm at 12" water through the carb, I use a 40mm delorros bored to 41mm.

The problem I see is cams. To make those numbers I run .580" valve lift and 270 duration at .050" lift with roller lifters and rockers. It really pops the valves open fast. Peak flow is at something like .350" - .400", but from some experimenting, the cams need to be at least .580" to make good hp. It has to do with the ramp angles, the valves need to slam open....it beats up guides a bit, but it makes hp.

So if cams like that can be forced into a 308 head, it should run.

I can't wait to see the dyno numbers, its a great project. Even if the heads don't let the peak come up as high at it could be, the torque should still be at least 33% higher across the board and that should make a great driving car.

 

Agree
The magic of this engine will be the torque.
best
rt

 

The reason that the LS1 engine is mentioned is because the internal clearances in the cooling system are very similar to a 308. Steve is currently running many engines with this style of liners and cooling systems.

The following is why the engine can handle the additional heat:

1. The radiator is larger, made out of Aluminum, has larger freer flowing coolant tubes, and approximately 50 percent more surface area to transfer heat.

2. The water pump is about twice as efficient as the stock unit for the reasons previously mentioned. The pulley is smaller so the pump is slightly over-driven.

3. After market fans push more air.

4. Evans Coolant is used to dissipate more heat and to minimize hot spots. The project is dependant upon Evans Coolant. Evans Coolant is also used in Steve’s other re-sleeved engines. Frankly, this is proven technology. Darton’s Honda engines spec Evan Coolant as well. (See Darton’s Website)

5. The sleeves are finned, with a coolant transfer port immediately below the Siamesed flanges. (See pictures)

6. The proper ignition timing and general engine tuning reduces heat. The stock engine runs very hot because of the dated emission equipment.

7. The combustion chambers, exhaust ports and runners, valves faces and piston tops are a coated with ceramic heat resistant material.

The issue of port design is a very valid concern. A good 4 valve head would produce number between the 360 and 430 Modena. Steve doesn’t really like the 308, 2 valve heads, but, as it is, the original 2 Valve ported heads do flow much more than stock. Valve sizing is not stock. Cam lift is increase a lot. Please forgive me for keeping a few things proprietary.

Thanks,

Mark Lewis

 

Mark, your thoughts on my posts earlier?