So you refuse to base your agument on fact. You can pass it off or hand the buck to someone else, but sooner or later one of you is going to have to put proof to your mouths. Might as well start now. Show me why his bearing sucks. Show us all why his bearing sucks. Show me how you have applied his crappy bearing and how it failed. I just ask that you adhere to the same engineering standards that you so valiantly require from others. So, show me the numbers.
You need to shut your mouth or learn to read English. FerrariFixer never claimed to have the numbers, he asked the guy changing the design for them b/c he was curious about how they've resolved the axial loads that will be applied to the roller bearings. Roller Bearings are NOT designed to take axial load hence his inquiry. And take your trolling to another thread. You're adding NOTHING to this discussion other than to make yourself look like a fool. Now, back to the pictures Matt if you please.
You need to shut your mouth and learn basic English, no? If Ferrarifixer is going to hold him to posting engineering maths, then I am going to require that Ferrarifixer do the same. If Ferrarifixer requests x or person x, then I am going to request the same. I am simply asking that Ferrifixer back up his mouth with science, much in the same way that Ferrarifixer is asking of the main person in this thread. So far, I have asked Ferrarifixer to tell me how exactly the engineering is wrong here, and so far he has just added insults, not maths.
Please keep the discussion that is not directly related to the 4.0L project off this thread. If you must discuss it, start a secondary thread.
Originally Posted by ferrarifixer "So far all we have is hypothesis and estimation. I'm incapable of calculating the loads, and was hoping either an engineer of the modifier could answer my questions." Korr Maybe you missed this quote from FF I am intersted in this thread and am taking great interest in both the concept and application of engineering principles. Please don't stuff it up with your inanities. John
Pete, The reason that the pump is overdriven is because Evan's coolant will be specified for the 4-liter engine. We have been working in conjunction with the people at Evans and it is their recommendation that their coolant works best at higher pump speeds. Another reason is that we are interested in making sure that any 308 runs cool if stuck in traffic even for those with conventional coolant. We will most likely offer a different pulley ratio for those using the car strictly for racing. In any event, we dont recommend going the other direction and under-driving the water pump even for a stock setup. It is our belief that the stock cooling system is not terribly robust. It has not yet been determined what will happen when we block bypass passage. This is a matter that will be extensively tested before it sees the light of day. This testing will be done based on the suggestions of the water pump manufacturer. The reason that we are considering this option is because Alfa uses a similar stock setup and by blocking that bypass results in a 40-degree lower operating water temperature. Thanks, Mark Lewis
Mark, Nice change of pace on here. Now that is what I was looking for! Great info! When will the pump be ready? -Sam
I feel an obligation to address some the things that have been said in recent posts before delving into more of the 4-liter project. First, Steve, Nick and myself would be remiss if we didnt thank those that have followed this thread and have expressed such encouragement. We are grateful. Your enthusiasm has given each of us a very real boost of energy. Thank you. We have involved you in our project because you have expressed interest and asked thoughtful questions. We are not actively marketing the project at this time; we are finishing up the R&D. We have the greatest respect for you on this website and welcome your interest. We are hopeful that you will feel like you are participants in this process. Thus far, the criticism of the 4-liter project has been relatively modest. Dissent is to be expected. The 4-liter project is new and challenges convention. Concerns have come largely from those within the industry and are targeted at details of the project that would increase service intervals for all 308s. I dont profess to know what their motives are, but their comments are only tangential to what we are trying to accomplish. I am appreciative that Steve has taken the time to clarify some of my comments, which may have been inartfully stated. Thanks, Mark Lewis
Sam, To date, there have been 5 water pump housings that have been cast. This initial batch of pumps should to be completed next week. Testing on such things as blocking off the coolant bypass port will begin immediately. Thanks for the question. Mark Lewis
That's kind of a snarky comment. As someone outside the industry, but also as a potential buyer of the motor, I don't see what the problem with the question is -- to wit, "what bearing part (manufacturer and number) are you using, and how did you determine that it would work correctly?" That's hardly a personal attack to ask that question, and you have to expect that the people you will eventually be asking to buy and support this (very cool!) thing will have precisely these concerns. At this stage, perhaps the question should be tabled, but you must expect that these will be raised again, on pretty much all your modifications. Certainly will need to be answered to the satisfaction of your customers before people are going to drop 20K+ on a motor. So please, everyone, lay off the attacks and lets keep this at a technical level. I'd be interested in info on the water pumps when they are ready.
Tillman, The bearing that has been at the center of this discussion has been correctly identified as NUP type by SKF. The manufacturer has been quoted as to the suitability of the bearing for axial loads as well as the physical attributes of the flanges in the bearing races. We have provided the link early on that will allow anybody to calculate the axial load capacity of the bearing. We have also stated that these bearings will be cryogenically treated which will have a materially impact on load handling and service life. We have mentioned that the proposed bearings are many times more expensive. We have even gone to some length to explain how the system works. All of this has been challenged. Addressing this issue is made more problematic because some have espoused theories that we believe simply have no foundation. Some of these theories or premises have the appearance of plausibility because they are commingled with fact. They are then used as the basis for supporting conjecture. Steve has very diplomatically handled most of this, but we believe misinformation continues to be presented. Frankly, publicly sorting out misinformation is very tedious and seems to be never-ending task. It begs the question in our minds, do some people want to know what is really going on or do they simply want to argue? In the event, that testing proves that an alternate design is needed then it will be pursued. The stock setup is unacceptable. Make no mistake, if we are correct in effectively upgrading the drive bearing and timing assemblies this will have substantial impact on the servicing of these cars. The driving force in continuing this discussion has been Ferrarifixer. He represents himself as a Ferrari mechanic. Sincerely, Mark Lewis
Mark One point to ponder on coolant. I am one of the organizers of the National FCA track event this year. A question under debate is the choice of coolant. As you know, anti freeze is hard to clean up after a spill, doesn't evaporate etc. At last year's National the decision was made that no cars with antifreeze coolant were allowed onto the track. Had to be drained and replaced with water and Redline's Water Wetter. This was the only authorized mix. Philip
How exactly? The stock bearings in these cars have lasted almost 20 years in some cases. I have yet to see a later 328 with a cam bearing problem. Even in speaking with veteran retired Ferrari mechanic, whom serviced these 308's when they were brand spaking new, never had to change the bearings. It is in my humble opinion, that the reason we are seeing these bearings fail is becuase of lack of use and age. The gease in the bearings will dry up over time as you know. The metal of the bearing will wear etc. For a service life of 20 years the design really can't be all that bad. How can you really keep hitting in the service point when you only have to change a part say every 10-15 some times 20 years? DO you feel that you will see maot of these cars with in that time frame? I doubt it. Yes the bearings fail..but only after a long time in service. They really aren't that bad. And yes Ferrrau Fixer has more then likly serviced more Ferrari's then you have even seen in your life..all different kinds of them..not just 308's. Take his questions seriously as I would think he has a right to ask them. He has seen lots of hotrodder come and go, who try to do hotrod things to a Ferrari. This could be why he is asking all the questions. Cut him a break and answer him for once.
Matt can't answer the question more out of a liablity stand point than not knowing. If he tells us what the loads are based on HIS caclulations, and someone here uses that info. to modify, then damage there Ferrari, he could be liable. Same with the bearing part number. I don't know why no one thought of this sooner, but the fact is liablitiy is now a part of almost everything we do.
If you believe that your car is reliable in its present state of tune, then I would suggest you leave it alone. The downside is that you will be writing a very large check for major service far more often than those that drive a 4-liter engine. In addition you will not have the option to get there nearly as fast except maybe my blower friends. Implicit with the goals of this project and the drive-bearing problem in particular, is the implication that so many have done so little to enhance the reliability of this car. The fact that these cars are driven infrequently is not a reflection of the owners, but rather the cars themselves. This is an indictment of those that have serviced 308s in the past and have done little to correct the reliability problem. This is an indictment of those that have charge exorbitant amounts for service that have not fixed the underlying problem. The 4-liter and its associated upgrades clearly represent an economic threat to those that make a living fixing 308s. These cars will not require nearly as must attention. Sincerely, Mark Lewis
Mark, Thanks for your reply on the water pump. The Alfa example is very interesting and I can thus see why blocking the bypass route is being pursued. Regarding your above comment ... hmmm, I'd be careful myself. We all know that most of the cambelt/pulley issues with these cars are because: - Owners do not understand that belts age, even when the engine is not run and thus become brittle. - Owners do not drive these cars enough, hence belts get a memory and bearings seize. - Owners do NOT follow Ferrari's recommended servicing ... due to the first point. Thus I personally believe most of the cambelt/pulley/bearing so called unreliability is BS. Remember the cambelt design is not to dissimilar to a FIAT 124/125 (just double in concept) and there are many of those things bouncing around the world with huge miles on them. The difference, servicing is cheaper due to access and also somebody who buys a FIAT may have more brains than those that buy a Ferrari and understand maintenance is the key to reliability. Thus my point: Before you claim that your new bearings are the answer ... lets see how a 4 litre engine that has only done 2000 miles in 20 years comes of in the cambelt area. Ofcouse the stupid owner will not believe the cambelt needs replacing 'cause he's only done 2000 miles and ofcourse that wonderful bearing of yours has been sitting in the same place with its lubrication (grease I assume) slowly ageing and hardening. I believe myself that the standard bearing is completely adequate if you follow Ferraris servicing recommendations and further more actually drive your car. Nobody can design a bearing that will last forever if the owner decides not to use the car and abuse it by just storing it. Bearings just like any mechanical object require USE to be reliable. SKF (or whoever) did not put all that design effort into what happens when the bearing only turns once a year ... read the catalogue, there will not be any figures or calcs for this situation. That is why when a manufacturing plant is closed it costs a fortune to 'moth-ball' it and then another huge amount to start it up again ... everything is fncked! So yes it is great to see such attention to the WHOLE engine and not just the bore and stroke, but I'd be careful about such claims myself. While you guys are obviously clever ... the engineer that designed the original engine: Lampredi, er, well he has a pretty good reputation as well, and his belt drives for the millions of FIAT engines that were sold in the '70's do NOT have a bad reputation at all. Thus there is nothing wrong with his ability to design belt driven camshaft systems ... which points to slack arse maintenance by rich (sometimes) but stupid Ferrari owners. Pete
Point taken. Remember that we are replacing the drive bearings, the seals, the cam pulleys, the drive pulleys, the balancer, the tensioner bearing and pulley, and the timing belts. All of these items are now of contemporary design. Thanks, Mark Lewis
Are those of us who feel the current design is good enough, and since we actually drive our cars only replace them in 5-7yr intervals, be able to do parts of this upgrade with the stock bearings?
If some of you guys think that the current service intervals are acceptable, then the direction in which we are headed will be of little valve to you. No offense taken. Thanks, Mark Lewis
What is your projected sevice interval? Somthing like a Honda? Change timing belt ever 8 years or 100,000km? What for? It will take some Ferrari's another 10 years to achive that milage..whats wrong with changing timing belts every 5 years? Most 308's aren't really owned for that long anyways. They are stepping stone cars most of the time. You're heart is in the right place..no doubt about it..and you seem to have spared no expense with most of the machine work..But in all hounesty are the 308's really as bad as you say? I would have to say no. I have had my 308 for almost 5 years..I has been one of the best cars I have ever owned. I have serviced god knows how many of these cars and the owners love them BECAUSE they are reliable. Yes things wear out..but show me a 20 year old car that doesn't need a bunch of work.
Yes, reliability is a very important goal in our view. It is not the only goal. With the modifications that we are proposing, we are hopeful that the cars will be driven a lot. I will be seriously depressed if 4-liter cars are setting in someones garage collecting dust. I dont see any reason why a 308 should not be driven as much as a 911. We dont want to build toys for rich people; we want to build real, honest to goodness, fun to drive cars. The 308 is a great platform and with carefully thought out improvements it could be something very special again. Sincerely, Mark Lewis
While Ferrari may say 5-years (and I've heard THREE!!! and less) any 308 owner who's done research knows that 5-years on the timing belts is a low number, especially if you drive it regularly. I just did mine a year ago and don't plan on touching them again for a least 5-6 more years because I drive it a lot. A lot of outside shops will even admit that a regularly driven car can go almost 10-years, just like honda's and toyota's on a set of belts. As Psk stated, it's not the mileage, it's that they sit around and degrade with little or not use. And the bearings in my car and a lot of others are 20+ years old and still work just fine with no leaks. I appreciate that you're trying to improve on the design, but as I said, some may not see the need to go that far and change that much. That's all. No need to be condesending.
Philip brings up a very good point concerning coolant.... "One point to ponder on coolant. I am one of the organizers of the National FCA track event this year. A question under debate is the choice of coolant. As you know, anti freeze is hard to clean up after a spill, doesn't evaporate etc. At last year's National the decision was made that no cars with antifreeze coolant were allowed onto the track. Had to be drained and replaced with water and Redline's Water Wetter. This was the only authorized mix" The same goes for any of the track events I attend, water based only. So with the need for this engine to use only Evans Coolant, and with more and more tracks adapting water base only coolant rules, does this effectively eliminate this engine from track use?
