Nick's 308 to 4.0 conversion

Water with water wetter is about the most effective coolant there is and has a lower viscosity than most anything else (so it will flow well around BIG cylinders), I can’t believe it would be a problem in any engine at the track. It is not a good choice for street use because it does not provide corrosion protection or an adequate safety factor to boil-over, coolants intended for street use are a much better choice for street driving.

 

I have attached some photographs of a junk 308 head that has been used to experiment with modified port contours. The use of a junk head allows for accurately measuring all critical casting thicknesses to avoid porting into the water passages. It also is a safe platform to test porting ideas without sacrificing a good head.

You will notice that testing has been done on a high quality flow bench with a custom fixture.

The primary focus has been on the intake side of things. As previously mentioned, maximum stock airflow was recorded at about 150 CFM at 28 inches of water. Our target is 200 CFM through the intake manifold. This is an aggressive goal given the poor flow characteristics of the stock 2 valve head. For example a ported Honda or LS1 head would absolutely blow our heads into the weeds. They have can produce flow numbers in the 300 CFM range. Steve tells me that he will soon be checking the airflow numbers on a new LS1 head with an advertised airflow of 392 CFM. Huge gains are simply not possible for the Ferrari 2 valve head. In addition it is not our intention to inflate CFM numbers by making large changes to port volume.

Given our cam spec’s, compression ratio, and other engine parameters, the target amount of airflow will generate over 400 hp. Torque will be nearly double that of the stock engine. Note that Carobu’s ported heads flow about 169 CFM and generate 317 hp with a 3-liter motor. http://www.carobu.com/html/308_gtb_track_car.html and http://www.carobu.com/html/308_gtb_flow_chart.html. Steve has used this dyno in the past and believes that the results are reasonably accurate.

We have experimented with different valve sizes, the various angles on both seats and valves, the shape of the valve, and the port contours. Please don’t ask for specifics. The initial results exceeded Carobu’s maximum CFM figures at 28 inches of water by about 10 CFM and showed substantial improvement over the stock flow at low to mid lifts. Subsequent refinements have demonstrated that our target hp and torque figures are realistic.

Thanks,

Mark Lewis
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Wow, this is low! I’m actually shocked. The last set of 911 heads I worked on made 165 at 10” water through the carb and air cleaner, at 28” they would be nearly double that.

Have you gone ahead and ground right though or filled in on the test head to find the problem?

 

"Water with water wetter is about the most effective coolant there is and has a lower viscosity than most anything else (so it will flow well around BIG cylinders), I can’t believe it would be a problem in any engine at the track"

Mark, thats what I'm wondering...
As Evans coolant boils @ around 375F and needs a no, or low pressure system to work properly.
Where water boils @ around 250F and requires a higher pressure system.

The other couple of guys that built 4-liter 308s had problems with heat spikes in the cylinder liners using normal coolant solutions which resulted in "Boom Boom out go the lights" which is why they no longer build them.

 

The concerns about the cooling system are valid. Ordinary coolant or water would be a very big problem. The larger capacity is managed by the following:

Water Pump:

The upgraded water pump is designed to move approximately twice the volume of coolant. The water pump will continue to pump throughout the entire rpm range of the engine. It is much less prone to cavitation. At the request of the Evans Cooling the water pump will then be 20 percent overdriven. The impeller is a modified scroll type, which is designed to handle a coolant with a greater viscosity.


Radiator:

First of all, the radiator is larger. The stock radiator is about 2.75 inches wide, while the 4-liter radiator is 3.10. The coolant tubes are larger and oval in shape reducing resistance to flow and the potential to be easily clogged with corrosion. The ratios of tube surface area to coolant contact, fin area to tubes, and gross fin area has been increase to about 40 to 50 percent. The radiator is constructed of aluminum.

Radiator Fans:

The stock fans have been tested to flow between 500 to 600 CFM each. The upgraded fans bolt into the stock locations but generate 1,100 to 1,200 CFM each. The proposed fans are also rebuildable. They have externally accessible brushes.

Evans NPG Coolant:

This is the means by which Steve has been able to install larger wet sleeves into many other engines. The higher boiling point has been correctly identified. This prevents hot spots in the sleeves and cylinder heads. Water is a great coolant right up to the point that it starts to boil. After that, water will form a vapor barrier in critical areas of the engine, which insulates metal surfaces from the coolant. In addition, the NPG Coolant has a terrific anti-corrosion properties.

The Evans coolant’s higher viscosity also prevents the sleeves from ringing in their bores when engine is running. This improves the integrity of the lower bore seals and extends the life of the sleeves themselves.

The Sleeves:

The physical design of the sleeves is specific for the 308 application. It might be useful compare the numerous changes from the stock sleeve to 4-liter sleeve. Further, the machining tolerances in the 4-liter sleeves are within .0005 of an inch. The stock sleeves are made nowhere near this level of precision. The sleeves machined from high strength ductile iron. Check out Darton’s website and you will notice that they are advertising their new M.I.D. Nissan VQ35DE sleeve setup. Anybody want to guess what Steve Demirjian has been doing the last few months? Yep!

Thanks,

Mark Lewis

 

Mark E.,

The basic problem with the intake port is that the port floor is too low in relationship with the valve seat. The short side radius is not very good. Steve has a little more colorful description of the port.

Another point to consider; If somebody tries to show you how good he is at porting a 308 head and then shows you the exhaust port as evidence…run like heck. The exhaust port flows plenty.

Thanks,

Mark Lewis

 

Mark
Thanks for continuing to field questions. I would caution that I believe the "track" coolant concern will grow, rather than ameliorate, going forwards. How does the Evans product fare if there's a spill?

LATE ADD:
I just checked the Evans website. I note that there is a formulation for track use. Sorry, Mark, are you guys planing NPG, NPG+ or NPG-R or will all work?
Philip

 

Philip,

I didn’t mean to give short shrift to the track coolant question. This is something that we have been discussing amongst ourselves. The following is part of an email message that I received from Steve this morning.

“A question was posted regarding use of water only as coolant at tracks. I think this will be fine for short term running with water wetter. For long term reliability on the street the Evans coolant is best. It also provides much better detonation resistance due to elimination of hot spots in the cylinder heads.

It will be a pain in the ass to have to drain the Evans and install water for a weekend race. I really have no response to that…”

I am not familiar with the use of NPG R coolant at race tracks or possible conflicts with track organizers.

As to your other question, we are planning on using NPG+. We have considered using the NPG R formulation. There are pluses and minuses to each. They don’t have same viscosity or service life. Steve Pressley of Evans has recommend that we use the NPG+.

Thanks,

Mark Lewis

 

That’s what I thought. I worked on a set of ducati heads years ago with the same problem. The fix was pretty easy and not all that much work...and should work for the ferrari head too. What I did was buy a length of 1 ¼” aluminum pipe, its got an ID of about 33mm if I recall. Then pop the valve guides and seats out of the heads. The I set the head up in the mill at the steepest angle I could without opening the valve spring pocket and bored the whole port out of it. Then stuff the pipe into the hole and weld behind the seat and outside to seal the water jacket back up. Bore the guide hole back in. Then port it, add a custom manifold and it picked up 20% more power over the best I could do with porting a standard head. Might be more than you want to bite off in the middle of the rest of the upgrades your doing, but it works, at least on a ducati.

 

Raising the port floor via welding in a tube like what you successfully did with the Ducati was considered. The work involved to weld up eight ports in dozens of heads, re-heat treat, straightening and so on would make it impractical for this project.

I'm about half way to my air flow goal with no time spent probing the port to map the air velocity in different areas. I still have to work out the shape of the back of the valve and then spend more time with valve seat contour. I'm pretty confident I can reach my objective with some sweat. At least now the port pulls up to .500" lift where the stock port starts to level off past .300" lift.

I might take your idea of sleeving to the exhaust port but without welding. The port is larger than we need even for a four liter. If the flow can be maintained with a smaller port cross section, velocity will be higher.

The stock exhaust port out flows the intake port. Maybe I should spend some time figuring a way to remount the heads so the exhaust is the intake and the intake is the exhaust!

Steve

 

Yeah, it's a ton of work, but easiest way I could think of...but I didn't need a to make money, just win the race. I've learned to hate messing with heads.....and that they always flow better when the intake is pressurized

A freind of mine machines and presses an insert into harley intake ports and it seems to work well (raises the floor, d-porting it). I think I'd be a little nervous about trying it on the exhaust, I be worried that it the heat would not transfer across the boundry and it would melt...maybe steel retained by the header flange?

Funny....I've seen that done on a triump motorcycle, the guy claimed a big hp gain

 

Steve
FYI, Michelotto used the 208 heads from the Euro cars for the race 308s, precisely for the reason you discuss - the ex port is too big.
Philip

 

I think the project is great and your techical assesments of cam drive bearing failure is right on the money (the shop were i work part time has replaced dozens of those bearings in 308's and in fact two are in the shop now for that very problem). These bearings are not replaced as part of a normal belt service as it requires an engine removal (there are those that say they can remove the cam drive cover in the car by removing studs and stuff but we don't think that is a proper way....please just our opinion so don't start). Those that don't think it is a problem will eventually change their tune as it is the weakest design link on 308's.

Several years ago I made one of the 1st postings on the use of Evans cooling (NPG +) and have been running ever since here in FL since 2001, one of the great unmentioned things about Evans product is that the cooling system is no longer pressurized. Pressurization is only required to raise boiling point of the water/coolant and since evans boiling point is far above 300 degrees no pressure is required (it also does not freeze into a Solid). Without pressure the chance of blowing a cooling line is almost a thing of the past. I know longer pat attention to my temp gauge when I sit in trafffic on a 95 degree day with the AC blasting. There is no comparring water wetter to Evans product, it's like apples and oranges.

The issue of switching from water to Evans is not so simple as to do and must be done correctly to not limit the effectiveness of the Evans product. ALL WATER must be removed from the system and in a Ferrari this is a pain, to assure all water is removed I do the following (as recommended by Evans): I 1st drain all water/coolant from system my opening lower hose and drain plug from block then I fill system up with PURE (no water) Sierra brand coolant (stuff that as safe for animals and eviorment (sold everywhere) and run the 308 for about 15 minutes. Now I drain system completely again and add Evans as I am now assured ALL Water/Coolant is out of system and that any Sierra left in system is completely compatible with the Evans product.

My only Question about this project is how the hell are you going to make this car STOP as there are no current aftermarket superior brake setups availible (yes I know about the front brembo set up availible) for the 308. If anybody knows of one please let me know ASAP!

 

There is an excellent recent thread by one of my personal FChat heroes, Steve Rochelin (enjoythemusic), where he did a big brake with suspension mods on a 308. Would suggest also a simple search on '308 brake upgrade'.

Mark Eberhart relays a f/r upgrade similar to a Boxster here:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31088&highlight=308+brake+upgrade

Looking forward to your impressive 48IDF qv progress!!!

best
rt

 

In conversations with Evans, they mentioned that there are a handful of 308 owners out there that have been using NPG+ for years. We certainly are not pioneering anything new by using the stuff. I guess that Paul was one of those guys that Evans was referring to. I appreciate the testimonial.

This is not one of those items that are exclusive to the 4-liter project. It is not that expensive by Ferrari standards…a couple hundred bucks. Using Evans coolant is a true DIY project, although replacing any coolant in a 308 is not a picnic. The results are impressive and it should be considered as great winter or spring project for your 308.

It provides superior cooling and a margin of safety in the event of over heating. There are numerous antidotal stories where Evans coolant has saved engines that have pegged the water temp gauge. For those interested in tuning their engines for more performance, Evans coolant will allow you to tune for maximum hp, not to the limitations of the cooling system.

The use of Evans coolant in conjunction with any of our other cooling systems upgrades will make worrying about over heating a thing of the past. NPG+ is basically a one-time deal. Replacing your stock water pump with another stock water pump is not a one-time deal. For those that are in love the stock water pump, I hope you share the same affinity for the Pinto water pump. They are about the same size and were designed at about the same time.

Once again, the topic of corrosion is not very sexy, but your 308 is doing it as we speak…minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day. There are those on this website that claim to be able to remove a cylinder head while the engine is still the car. Because of corrosion, I would have needed a stick of dynamite…maybe more. Given the proximity of the gas tanks this would have been an explosive solution. Because of the amount of corrosion that is common in these engines, I wonder how often any coolant is changed in a 308? The Evans coolant is a great solution to the corrosion problem.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

One of the aspects of the 4-liter project that has not received enough attention is the camshaft profile that Steve is using for this engine.

Notice the gross lift is .485 for the intake valve. The stock lift is .300 and the P6 cams are in the neighborhood of .375. Kermit has stated that this is not possible to increase the lift to this amount, but airflow numbers have been generated up to .500 lift on our 2 valve 308 head. Web Cam’s performance 308 cam grinds don’t have as much lift as we are showing.

Steve's porting efforts also have resulted in additional airflow all the way through .485 lift. The stock ports max out at .300 lift.

The 4-liter’s additional displacement allows for the use of more duration…235 at .050 lift as compared to 216 stock.

There is an axiom that lift equals torque. If this holds true then Steve’s modified and ported heads would provide the stock engine significant gains in both torque and horsepower. It is my opinion, that the “Cam Grind” thread should focus a little more attention to the changes that Steve is making. They are directly applicable to the 3-liter engine, and they will be available in a CNC form before too long.


Thanks,

Mark Lewis

 

That sounds like a really nice cam for the application....I can't wait until you guys get it running. I'm guessing that with 235 degrees, hp will peak about 7500 (if you get the flow) and carry out to maybe 8000, is that what your cumputer says or I'm I guessing wrong?

 

Mark,

You are pretty darn close.

Per your request, I have attached some the torque and horsepower simulations and well as airflow improvements through the initial stages of port design.

The difference between the stock 308 and the 4-litter simulation is very demonstrative of what it is that we are trying to accomplish.

I am hard pressed to understand how anybody would allow a 4-liter car get lonely. Look at all of the extra torque. I am really hopeful that the increase in performance translates to more drivability and more fun.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis
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Please forgive me for graphically showing the torque gain of the 4-liter engine over the stock 308. I just don’t want there to be any ambiguity associated with the potential of this project.

Yes, we are anticipating that the 4-liter will be a completely different animal.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis
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This is what the 4-liter project is all about!

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis
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As additional questions about the 4-liter project begin to wane, I would like to conclude by saying that our overall goal is to improve drivability so that the cars are driven. I don’t think that there is much dispute that the 308 does not see a lot of time on the road. Will the improvements mentioned here many a difference? We hope so.

1. Reliability:

We believe that the fear of incurring major repair costs has a direct bearing on the how often the car is driven. Virtually nothing on a 308 is cheap to repair. It is very possible that the age of the car in conjunction with the cost to service is weighing on the minds of many. Much of the post associated with this thread addresses this problem head on.

Our solution is to try to make something that has longer service interval and is easier to fix.

2. Torque:

This car has been underpowered since it was introduced several decades ago. This condition has resulted in major issues about the car’s drivability. First gear is very low. On US cars, first gear is basically used to get the car rolling and not much else. The 4-liter car will produce so much torque that first gear will be almost useless, unless chances in gearing are made.

It is not an uncommon experience to have first gear quickly run out of legs to only have to chase more power in the upper rpm range to make the car go. This is draining. Torque on demand makes any car more enjoyable to drive.

Currently at freeway speeds the car is pushing 3,500 rpm’s or more. Nothing feels terribly relaxed or easy.

This solution is to develop the 4-liter engine and then mate it with the right set of gears.

3. Clutch:

Setting in traffic with a stiff clutch is not the way to treat your left leg to a day of fun and excitement. Despite the opinions of some, I believe that the 308 clutch wears out too soon and is a little too stiff. There are some that believe that making a 308 last 30,000 miles is a measure of ones driving skill and the proper maintained of the car. It’s time to face facts and acknowledge that it is simply a lousy design.

The solution is the clutch under development for the 4-liter car. It is a carbon on carbon clutch that is designed specifically for the 308. We believe that this will be an improvement over anything on the market and address all of the concerns previously mentioned. This is not an adaptation of a clutch of the shelf. It is a clutch that is custom tailored for this car.

The car begs to be driven hard. You conscience should not be whispering to you that the dog gone thing is going to break.

I believe that by improving the stuff mentioned above that the 4-liter will be a lot more fun to drive. Time will tell.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

I've been thinking about this problem myself....If your solution is in the form of a reasonably easy to install set of drop gears, I'd be very very interested. If it is a ring and pinion I'd still be interested, but that would clearly be a "some winter" project

 

Mark,

Steve is hooked up with people that can make any gear set that we can design. I am interested to know what ratios you have been kicking around in your head? Are you running a stock US setup now?

Your input and opinions would be very much appreciated on this subject.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Modena Engineering in Melbourne have been making alternative drop gear sets for many years. They can be changed roadside if needed to tune your gear ratio to suit your usage.

FWIW Mark, I believe most people do not fear maintenance, they fear expense. Most people that fear expense are going to have the hardest time with the original purchase of all this. Carbon clutches alone are very expensive, and with all the other things you are doing I can only hazard a guess at the fitted price of the unit you offer.

People that don't fear expense, may well be not interested in getting 100,000 miles of trouble maintenance free motoring. They enjoy using and modifying their cars.

This thread almost dropped off the leader board for a moment there, it's becoming more like a brainwashing thread. People now know where to go if this is what they want. Rather than throw up new brain washing propaganda and theorised graphics, how about answering the questions put before you.

 

Kudos to you, Nick, Mark and Steve. I've been reviewing the 14 pages of posts on your 4 liter and I'm shocked to see people whining about spending $20k on a motor that has 8 Titanium rods, a billet crank, a host of other mods, and that has what NO Ferrari V8, except for the 430, ever had TORQUE!

For everyone's information, Ferrari built 4 liter QV motors! They are on display at the Ferrari Museum in Modena (I've got lots of photos).

First off, the "$30k" 308 is not just a $30k car. Remember, once upon a time 250 California Spiders and 300 SL Gullwings were just "$15k" cars. Then the market wised up and realized their intrinsic value.

The 308 is accepted as one of the prettiest cars ever designed. It is far more beautiful than the now mass produced Ferraris, such as the 355, 360, 355, Maranello or 612.

Some months back I was at Beverly Hills Porsche with my QV when Denzel Washington pulls up with his black TT. His CD player wasn't working right. We tried to fix it while waiting for a service guy. We then got to talking. Denzel walked around my car saying things like "Damn, this is an amazing looking car!" You could see the guy really loved the car! (He likes to drive and himself is a Ferrari owner.)

Here in BH I see all sorts of cars. Every day like taxis there are AM Vanquish, Maranello, and swarms of 355 and 360s. I've seen no less than 4 Porsche GTs on the street as well as 8 Enzos. My QV draws more attention than all but the ultra exotics. (E.g., Enzo, POrsche GT).

Here in BH, MErcedes AMG SL55s are everywhere. What do you think gets more looks and attention? Yes, my $30k 308.

Guys in $120k Porsches pull up and look enviously at my Ferrari.

So, for those who can't comprehend investing money in a 308, please let me know if you have any old Ferraris sitting in your dad's garage or barn!

People talking about camming 3 liter motors or turbocharging as being cheaper/better are clueless, no offense.

I have owned not one but two Bob Norwood built Turbo 308s. Yes, Bob does great work. Yes, the cars are fast, SORT OF.

They are fast from 4000 rpms and up! And what do you think it costs to turbo a side mounted V8? Just the manifolds are $$$$.

But none of this fixes the problem. You punch a 308/328 in traffic at 1500 rpms and absolutely nothing happens! Even if you have a $20k twin turbo system nothing happens! You don't start to move until your around 3k rpms!

Cams on a stock motor? Waste of money. I've driven a 328 with ported heads and mild cams. Yes, more power but up in the upper RPM range! Again, no good for real world driving!

Cams and turbos for a track car? Great! Street car? Terrible!

Only a postive displacement supercharger or bigger displacement motor will solve the problem. Blackhorse has a twin screw supercharger on a Mondial and that Mondial will light up its tires like small block chevy.

If all you want is speed relative to money, buy yourself a Vette.

If all you want is a damned pretty/flashy car with no go then don't bother with upgrading your motor.

But if you want a 308 that has performance to match its looks and if you actually drive your Ferrari the way it should be driven, then the only choice is a positive displacment supercharger or a bigger motor.

Personally, I can't wait to see the results of a 4 valve/ 4 liter motor. Throw on a supercharger and your easily in 430 near Enzo territory!
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