Nick's 308 to 4.0 conversion

Ferrari Fixer still must use insults, I would recomend that you move on to another thread as you are getting old.

The engineers that have been posting here have been beyond professional and truly informative and based on the amount of hits this thread has been getting I would belive many feel this way.

Paul

PS. I run Modena quick change straight cut gears in my 308 qv.

 

Shouldn't you be in the upper RPM's if you were driving it the way it should be anyway?

 

I am running stock US QV setup now, but I'm not sure where I want to head exactly. A low 1st gear is nice rolling around parking lots, you don't need to have the clutch in all the time, but that's the only time it's good.

When my car was making 304 rwhp (about 370 crank and 300 ft-lb torque) with the 285 tires, to launch I had to drop the clutch at about 4500 to get the tire loose, but then be gentle with the throttle not to over cook them.

Now at 425 rwhp (520hp/425ft-lb crank) I put it in second and drop the clutch at 3500 rpm and be very very gentle rolling in the throttle to not over cook the tires.

So I could re-gear to put 1st where 2nd in now or even a touch higher and be fine. You're predicting almost the same torque I have so I'm guessing you're going to want about the same thing...but I you may not have the 16/65 ring and pinion I have....I think they went to this in 1980.

Any way, I calculate I need to go from 27/30 to something like 34/26 or 32/25 and make the idle fit, or with care the stock idler could probably be used I'd guess. I don't want to mess with straight cut gears, I want it quiet on the highway. this will make the final drive in 5th 2.57 compared to 3.736, so what was 3500 rpm will be 2400, nice and quite....as well as a top speed (in theory) over 200

 

"Modena Engineering in Melbourne have been making alternative drop gear sets for many years. They can be changed roadside if needed to tune your gear ratio to suit your usage."

Phil could you please give me more information on the drop gears.Are they straight cut gears?What are they worth?Have you used them and what are your experiences.Thanks

 

I am very familiar with the drop gear sets & Modena's Products. Their drop gear set is straight cut & it whines like a small block Chevy with a 671 blower on it! Paul Sloan who is a client of mine & is on this chat site has a set. It is LOUD, they were selling in the 5-6,000 dollar price range if I remember correctly. Here is a picture of thier package. The gears we plan to make will not be straight cut & will be another bolt on performance option avail to the rest of the Ferrari 308 guys without having to go 4 liter.
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If you drive your car regularly, then you realize the only time you are only in the upper RPM range is out on the highway with no traffic or on a race track.

On the gearing topic, 308 gearing is a bit of a drag.

19" wheels with 285/35 19 rear tires have a 27" diameter as opposed to 24.7" for the oem 225/50 16. The 19" tire needs only 772 revolutions to cover a mile while the smaller diameter wheel/tire requires 827 revolutions.

That's one of the pluses to using the six speed gearbox and 8500 rpm 355 motor in a 308. That's an effective differential change of 9.3%. E.g., instead of doing more than 4200 rpms at 80 mph in 5th, w/19s your rpms drop down to 3800 rpms. Not a huge difference, but it is a an easy way to alter your effective ratios.

 

Just reading this post out of a general interest (I'm too big physically for a 308 so can't have one), but I have to say, well done Mark for persevering, continuing to give some great info and having the passion to follow through with your ideas.

Having been down similar routes with other marques in the past, I cannot help but think many of you are totally missing the point.

The fact that it costs an absolute packet is neither here nor there. Very little to do with these cars makes financial sense. If you want financial sense, buy a Honda Civic.

To that end, I think questioning the value/pricing of the work or the size of the market is misplaced on this post, and some way from constructive.

Similarly the "keep it original" merchants are also missing the point. People own these cars for different reasons. You should be happy that people are prepared to do this sort of work, if for no other reason than it enhances the value of those kept "original".

Mark sounds to me like a guy with a car who was prepared to put his wallet where his imagination is, and the spin off might well be something that other owners can make use of. He also sounds like he has that crazed passion about these cars that I'm sure we all share, even if it's channelled in different directions.

I did exactly the same with one of my cars, where I helped develop a dry sump system. It actually cost me more to do this (both financially and in time) than it would have done to sit back and wait for someone else to do this and then buy the product off the shelf.

But you know what? I enjoyed myself doing it. And if we all sat on our arses waiting for someone else to do something, nothing would progress ever.

The engineering debate is useful when it's backed up with hard facts and avoids anecdotal evidence. It may even help Mark and his builders.

But the rest just comes across (from a 100% objective and independent view) as kicking the guy when all he seems to be doing is sharing what we should all agree is a bloody interesting project that seems to be kicking out some very high quality work (from what pictures I've seen).

Let's just hope Mark doesn't get bored with the less than constructive comments from some quarters and continues down his chosen path. And may he get infinite satisfaction from the result. Well done Mark.

 

Andy, thank you very much for the encouragement and the shared enthusiasm for this project. We are not discouraged by the comments of a few. I will have you know that I don’t fit into a 308 easily either. I am 6’3”, and I don’t publish my weight anymore. The one thing that I really wish was larger is the pedal area. My feet are too big.

The picture provided by Excelsiorz is very interesting. Please note, that the water pump is different, the timing belts look like they have a round tooth design, the cam pulleys are different, and the oil pump is different. I am even willing to bet that the front cover has been modified too. In all honesty that is the first that I have seen of that engine and it looks beautiful.

More to follow,

Good Night

Mark Lewis

 

Once again you have mis interpreted my question.

Mark has stated that the loads for the bearings have been calculated and they have re-designed the engine to thier specs.

My question is based on the request for knowledge of how inadequate the original bearings are as std, and how much better theirs are.

I have not criticised originality, and will not. Again, everything else they are doing is fine, understood and applauded by me and others.

You all keep knocking my query as if it is many. It is NOT. I have 1 question, thats all....... 1 question. He quotes the info as being calculated and therefore it would be easy for him to state how inadequate the originals are, if not how good his are. (in case it's some secret).

The engineering of a flat roller bearing for axial loads is a new concept, and it would benifit many technically inquisitve minds to answer the question.

I also have some query about Marks constant knocking of Ferrari engineering concepts, when Nicks own website so proudly preaches how wonderful they are, but that's just a small print detail.

I AM NOT KNOCKING this project. I have 1 technical enquiry, that's all, just 1.

 

I dont believe they have the answer, or we would know it. And if we keep bugging them they will have us silenced just like they did to Kermit.

By the time all this modifying is done its not even a Ferrari engine anymore. At that point you could just as well fit a Chevy V-8 back there like Norwood did, and probably for less. No more timing belt junk, no more junk water pump, get rid of those junky cylinder heads, and be done with that junk ignition system once and for all.

 

Where is your practical experience in this matter? Aside from swapping out water pumps, what have you done...ever...to make us think that you know what you are talking about?

 

For the record:
1. I have never met Kermit,
2. I have never talked to Kermit,
3. I have not silenced Kermit.

In fact, the first communication that I had with Kermit was a response on this Chat Site in which he claimed that the maximum bore diameter for a 308 was 83 mm. He then referenced Darton as his source. Apparently, he didn’t talk to Steve. We have.

As for the drive bearings:

Steve and I have attempted to explain the various options that we are pursuing. I don’t think that we have been ambiguous. We are not going to provide the level of engineering detail that would enable someone to reverse engineer the project, also though we are pretty close on this topic.

To date, there has only been criticism of the first option. The question is whether or not the cylindrical bearing that we selected for the bearing cover is has adequate for the actual axial loads in this application. Our data suggests that the answer is “Yes”. If in practice, option one is not acceptable it will not be sold to third parties. Option two will then be employed. To us this appears to be both reasonable and ethical.

Thanks,

Mark Lewis

 

Mark
Is $20,000 a realistic, turnkey number? i.e., pull the motor and trans. Ship it to you. At some specified date and $20K later, a 4L motor w/trans comes back. Hook it up. Fill it with Evans coolant and...your done...?
Oh, and plumb the DS.
Philip

 

<Blushing> A most humble thanks.

(Said in good humor) Insanity has it's privileges. If you knew the amount of $$$/effort in the 308 here you'd say it is indeed insane. In fact one Fchatter says if i keep up the upgrade pace i will soon own the world's only 2004 Ferrari 308 LOL

But hey, it's all good

And now some Fcar 'porno shots' and also an engine blueprint
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Phil,

As previously mentioned, this project has not been completed yet. Targets have been established. Finalized pricing will not be available until all of the details have been worked out. The purpose for answering questions on this thread has been primarily to explain the concept, not to take orders. There are those that have expressed concerns that this thread has served to “Brain Wash” Ferrari Chat members. I am particularly sensitive to that kind of criticism. I don’t want this to become an infomercial.

With that said, Nick has told me that there has been quite a bit of interest. Nick has generated a waiting list. Product details have been discussed as best we can at this point in time to those people in line. Nick is not taking deposits, only explaining options. Each engine will be custom tailored to the individual, so pricing will vary.

I believe that Nick is the source for pricing information that has found its way on to this site. As such, I will defer to him to answer specific questions regarding performance options and pricing. It would probably be more discreet if you contact Nick directly by telephone or by email so that he can answer your specific questions.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

FWIW this project is completely within the bounds of reality. Upgrading the engine to this extent is common in Porsches. There's a 4.0l conversion for 911 engines that done right, will cost 20k and will produce a comfortable 400hp. The really cool one is the upgrade Devek does to the 928 engines. Up to 6.5l has been done, producing an easy 600 crank hp. These engines have been worked hard in open road races (200mph) and thrashed on road courses with phenomenal reliability.

The consensus in Porsche circles is that if you want big power, turbo/supercharging is the least expensive, and you take the risk of a big BANG. If you want a high-hp engine you can really work hard and never worry, stroking with a displacement increase is the way to go.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread, thanks Mark!

Mark

 

No Mark, there are NOT "those" that have expressed brainwashing. just me so far. One voice with one question. You raised the point of Ferraris inadequacy in this area, and I would like to know by how much.

Now, HOW INADEQUATE ARE THE STOCK BEARINGS. ?

Even if you just tell me the axial load, i'll get SKF to tell me if the stock bearings can handle it.

Korr,

I'm just a mechanic with a mid level engineering qualification. I'm a Ferrari enthusiast and I spend about 30-40 hours on average each and every week working on them. I have worked in workshop with up to 10 other guys doing the same thing, and have shared many experiences with them also. My pool of experience is huge, but I'm sure there are more experienced people out there too. I have many high level contacts that feed and ask me information too. I have worked on race cars since 1998, the only brand being Ferrari (both historic while at DK engineering and modern in Australia) and a brief Porsche foray for one event.

I have repaired many Ferraris (about 15-20?) for exactly this cam drive problem, BUT NEVER THE SAME CAR TWICE.

FWIW, the water pump failures are always due to the seal deficiencies letting water into the bearings, in my opinion, but that's all it is. I haven't analysed them closely.

 

I am hopeful that eventually we will move on to discuss gearing and clutches. In the mean time, it appears that my powers of “Brain Washing” are at best limited.

Are there any unintended consequences of changing the bearing design? We don’t think so, but this will be ultimately demonstrated in testing. It looks good on paper, but we will see what real life brings. I would not begrudge Ferrarifixer if he chooses to test the axial load of the bearing on a car that is in his shop and then publish his results.

Are there intended consequences of changing the bearing design? We hope so.

1. The radial load capacity will be greatly improved. This is the reason for current bearing failures in our opinion. The goal is to eliminate the 15 to 20 bearing failures referenced in FerrrariFixer’s post in the original design, not by subsequent service in a shop.

2. Upgrading the radial loading of drive bearings anticipates that the 4-liter will increase radial loads on the entire assemble.

3. We will use the newer rounded cog belt design in conjunction with the better bearing life to open the door to extended service intervals.

4. The cam pulleys will be adjustable so owners or mechanics can change valve phasing without removing timing belts.

Our water pumps have better castings, proven bearings, proven seals, and superior impellers. We hope that our unit will become the direct replacement upgrade of choice when it is time to service the water pump. The pumps will be marketed worldwide to both professional Ferrari shops and individuals. Channels of distribution are being setup as we speak. Either Nick or myself would be more than happy to sell FerrariFixer replacement pumps at jobber rates so that his clients could have the benefits of these pumps. In fact, I would suggest that FerrariFixer call Nick for details.

They are designed to work with Evans NPG+ Coolant, or without. In fact, Evans provided input into the final design. As warmer weather approaches in the next few months, now is the time to consider improving ones cooling systems.

Finally, I have no desire to discredit FerrariFixer’s extensive personal experience regarding the care and feeding of the 308.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

I don’t know how Steven’s red 308 ended up on this thread, but the car is absolutely glorious. Nice job on the engine bay.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Yes, gears and clutches please.....

 

Talking about gears, my very vague plan was to either call these guys and buy blanks to finish machine and heat treat which isn't all that much work, but requires some thinking

http://bostongear.com/products/open/helical.html#

or just wait for you guys to work it out and just buy them

 

Australia sees some pretty high ambient temperatures I think anyone will agree, and I don't see a need for any improvments to the cooling system, even on a mildy modified car. Of course, 4 litres is not a mild mod so I can't comment. But a 308 with up to 300BHP will be cooled just fine with a std set up in good condition. QV fans are a bit better than carb cars, but that's about as much as is needed if anything. I think 10 years of occasional use from a water pump is acceptable. And they'll go for 15-20 if you use the car regularly.

But if people want to upgrade, then of course they can. But theres no point upping the flow if the water then spends no time in the radiator being cooled, so you'll need the new rad too........

The cam drive question still stands. The answer has apparently been calculated already, and while being quick to mud sling Ferrari designs, you won't back it up with your findings.

 

He answered you earlier. You're not going to get a hard number for the reason he states below. I think you've taken this far enough and are starting to be unreasonable.

 

Thanks Mark. snj5 mentioned the car so i added picks. Of course one would alter the suspension and MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL the brakes if they are going to beef up the engine. IMHO i would do the suspension and brakes FIRST before the engine/tranny. It is the safe, SANE way of doing things IMHO.

Of note, just below the last pic is a downloadable PDF of the BLUEPRINT of the 308 engine i got from Ferrari that i cleaned up a bit. It is a 1:1 as best i can tell of the engine. Feel free to take it to your local blueprinter and have copies made. Kinkos can do cheap large prints of it and those are great for car shows as it seems virtually no one has the actual blueprints of their engines

 

The first patch of water pumps should be ready today. I will show some more photographs of the completed pumps as soon as possible. Apparently Ferrarifixer would prefer to rebuild the original or purchase a new one from Ferrari. I don’t agree with the logic of doing it that way, but that is his right.

There have been numerous thread on this website that have dealt with cooling system problems. Where there is smoke there is generally fire. As previously mentioned the stock pump will cavatate before redline is reached. In addition the new pump will pump about twice as much coolant.

I would like to thank those that have provided specific ideas regarding gear ratios. We are still up in the air on this issue, however we are certain that something has to be done. Ultimately, the actual gear ratio will be derived from dyno numbers. We aren’t quite there yet.

I personally am not interested in straight cut gears because of noise. I have been told Nick that the pictures of gears that he posted cost about 5 to 6 grand. I believe that this to be excessive.

The outfit that we will be using is not the one posted above. Steve is very confident that we will be able to deal with this issue in a compressive manner. All gears will be looked at. The company that we will be using manufactures custom racing transmission, including F1. Don’t let the last comment scare you in regards to cost. We simply have to find a cost effective solution. Some solutions may end up costing too much to be practical. Time will tell. Ultimately, our success in this area will go along ways towards making our 308s drivable.

Steven, it looks like you are using the Brembo front caliber setup. That is one option that we will evaluate as well. Nick sells a variety of different products. As for starting with the brakes first…oh well it’s a little late for that now. I am kind of a little bit pregnant with the motor stuff as we speak.

Thanks,

Mark Lewis