Nick's 308 to 4.0 conversion

Nice looking 308. I've always loved that car. The brakes are cool.

 

Yes, I would prefer to rebuild an original, as there is nothing wrong them for standard or even mildy modified use.

They do not cavitiate at normal usage or mild track work, if they did, how would they get through so many races or rallies?? The facts are out there, you cannot just make up your own.

There is no need to increase the flow in normal use either, the whole system works very well, even on 40 deg C ambient 50 deg C track temps. Increasing the fow will reduce the time the radiator has to cool things down, so, with a std radiator, increased flow will make it run hotter in extreme cases.

Yes, the pump seals will weep if the car is not used enough, which will eventually let water onto the bearings if the tell tale hole should get blocked, but that is a VERY slow process. (And if owners would just release the cap after use when they know the car is going to sit around, the pressure would be released and the leakage reduced to negligable levels.)

I have a water pump exchange system. I have a rebuilt one and can fit it in a few hours to keep the car on the road, and then re-build that one for my stock. When I start getting problems with my methods, I'll look for an alternative, but I'm still waiting since 1987. I've never done the same car twice either.

For the 4 litre project, I'm sure you have done the calculations, but don't keep using scare tactics on the vast majority of std car owners to increase your sales. It is unwarranted.

F-UK offer new water pumps at great prices, which also have a slightly modified impellor to reduce risk of cavitation, should you want to use it on an F40 LM for example.

 

Why would anybody that owns a Ferrari want a marginal water pump?

Why would a Ferrari mechanic be motivated to install something with a useful life of about 30,000 miles when there is an available cost effective option that will go far longer?

Why in this day an age of superior metallurgy, bearing and seal design, and a state of the art impeller, would anybody want to pay for dated technology?

Who really thinks that 30,000 miles for a stock water pump is adequate?

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

See, there you go. Making up facts again. Ferrari water pumps can and do last much longer then 30,000 miles. Sure, some may have failed earlier, but I'd bet they're more around 15 years old. They way you quote facts is as if they'll all explode the monent the odometer trips over. It's utter garbage to say something that tens of thousands of cars prove you to be wrong about.

I've got dozens of cars that have gone way beyond that mileage without needing water pumps. You can't just make this crap up Mark. For example, most recently I've had two high mileage 328's in. Both are over 100,000 km and still on their original 1980's water pumps with no sign of needing attention.

Sure, sell your pumps as better quality materials, higher capacity etc etc, but don't make stories up about stock items that are simply false, mis-leading, inaccurate or at best, extreme case examples.

 

FerrariFixer lives and works in Australia (no argument I hope).

The number of Ferrari's delivered to the Australian market was (and is) a extremely tiny fraction of what was (and is) delivered to the USA and Europe therefore Ferrarifixer experience with the big picture is truly limited.

Based on my conversations with owners (both here and in Europe) as well as experience (in the US) the 308 water pump is the next weakest link behind cam drive bearings (which even Ferrari attempted a fix in 1983).

I would bet that if you contacted parts suppliers like GT Car parts .... you would fine that water pumps parts request are not far behind belts, tensioner bearings and cam drive bearings when it comes to 308.

FerrariFixer is now just posting to hear himself and his two examples of high mileage Ferrari's out of 12,000 +++ produced (328/308's) is pretty lame, but then again so have most of his arguments.

Time to "put another shrimp on the barbie"

 

Before you go off the planet with your criticism of Phil, perhaps you should get your facts right first.
Your first two statements are accurate, but I have a problem with this one - ".......therefore Ferrarifixer experience with the big picture is truly limited."
Phil has only been in Australia for a few years (3 or 4, I think) and came from the UK where his experience was extensive on both old & new Ferraris. Last time I looked, the UK was part of Europe and probably has more Ferraris than the US.

Disclaimer - I am not one of Phil's customers, because I am the other side of the country - 2000 miles away.

Your inaccuracies go to your credibility - what more can I say?

John

 

Honestly, who really cars about any of this petty cr*p anyway? If somebody wants to think an OEM part inadequate and build a "better" one, so what. People that agree with them will buy it, people that don't won't. What on earth has any of this got do do with what the thread is about? It's a way cool custom 308 hotrod project...the word custom is important because it is the way the owner wants it and addreses the things he believes are important. If you want it a different way, built your own however you see fit...and please post pic because I'm sure that will be a cool custom too, just different form this one. I know there are plenty of people that think I pretty much ruined my car, but I like as I'm sure Mark likes everything he's doing to his.

Start a new thread in off topic, I'd suggest religion and politics and bash each other all you want, just please stop doing it here.

 

Mark,

I agree and I think you ruined your car just like I did!
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Paul,

Great looking ride...totally ruined.

Just by way of reminder, the pump that we are talking about for all intents and purposes is visually identical to the stock unit. Appearance is completely retained.

It differences are measured in increased service life and pumping capacity. Hold up the impeller to any contemporary water and you will be struck by how small the Ferrari unit is. I suggest you guys compared to the Ferrari water pump to a Ford Pinto pump. Frank, this little bit of show and tell had me feeling a little inadequate. The lowly Ford was about the same size. A 350 Chevy water pump looks like it could have the Ferrari pump for lunch.

It is my guess that most Ferraris live in Southern California. I see them all the time…not a big deal. One of my partners owned 4 Ferraris. Hot summer days and traffic will cause 308’s to run a little hot. If your radiator is a little corroded, then things can get a bit shaky in a hurry.

Does the stock pump cavatitate at high speeds? Well, two reputable sources told us that this pump would have problems at anything above 4,000 rpm’s. It has to do with the stock impeller design. How many after-market water pump manufactures use a paddle wheel impeller…exactly?

On this website alone, I have seen electric water pumps mentioned, and examples of water pumps machined from billet. Why? It is a weak link in the cooling system and failure can be catastrophic.


Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Well, the reputation of those reputable sources should be wholly tarnished now as the facts FAR out weigh the theories.

Any member of the 3x8 family will cruise for hours on end at well over 4000 rpm. 5500-6000 is a very comfortable cruise. I once drove from UK to the Ferrari Factory in a convoy of 6 308's, with not a single problem other than some beaurocracy at the customs!. Not an overheat, cavitation (or a cam drive failiue) in sight. Hot weather and traffic too....

Mark, your pumps are no doubt excellent and perfectly suited to your re-invention project, but Ferrari's pumps are adequate for virtually all uses too. They also drain minimal power which a higher flow one would not.

So pretty PLEASE, sell your wares on their own merits, and NOT your alleged inadequacies of original parts.

 

The stock 308 water pump has the extra responsibility of pumping coolant from the engine to the front of the car and back again. This is not the norm for most cars. Any restriction in its path can cause problems.

The stock radiator uses a series of SMALL copper tubes and fins in which to exchange heat from the coolant to the outside air. It seems that the stock radiator is prone to the effects of corrosion. Our pump simply provides for an extra margin of safety and superior cooling capacity.

Evans coolant is use to handle corrosion. By virtue of the condition of internal parts that we have seen, these engines don’t have their coolant changed frequently enough. This interval should not be neglected.

Our aluminum radiator has much larger coolant tubes and as such is far less likely to become blocked by corrosion.

As for the experts that I have referenced, they are very experienced and reputable. It fact, they have been the business for an extended period of time. I would appreciate it if the integrity was not challenged.

As for the adequacy of the stock pump, there have been numerous testimonials on this website to support the contention the water pump leaves something to be desired. My limited personal experience supports this conclusion. The coolant temp would become slightly elevated during summer driving in traffic in Southern California. Nothing terribly serious, but it is worrisome. This risk is put to bed by the design that we are proposing.

It is not my intention to rip Ferrari a new one, by being critical of various components. My purpose is build an extremely reliable power plant that is the equal to the promise the body styling portends.

Although, we are willing to demonstrate the benefits of this package of component something tells me that Ferrarifixer will not be placing an order.


Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

I've been looking at this thread for a while, and because I don't own a 3x8 car, I've kept my mouth shut. However, after reading the various claims, crits etc., I'd like to put in my two sense: 1. Ferrari improved the 308, its called a 328, 348, 355, 360, 430. All of those improvements were to increase power, handling braking, etc., and all of those improvements have quite a bit of research, road testing, etc behind them.

What Mark is offering is essentially an upgrade to a little bit more power for the 308. I've been there in bikes. I've never had good luck modifying vehicles like that. Whenever you make an improvement, someone else ends up lacking. I suspect that before someone is done here, they'll have at least another 50 - 60k into the car to make it all compatable. If that known up front, ok, but if it becomes one thing after another, then there are going to be some unhappy people. I know some people who'd like a 308/328, but want modern performance, but I suspect the majority of those thinking about this aren't really looking for that, rather a little upgrade. Make sure you know exactly what you're doing here.

These things never seem to work out well for most people.

Just my .02

Art

 

See, you still don't get me. IF, someone were to ask me what they can do about giving a 308 serious power/torque WITHOUT blowing it, I'd suggest the biggest up-grade they could do would be your 4.0 conversion.

I know that it necessitates numerous ancillary changes too...like fuel supply, air inlet improvements, complete cooling system, brakes, clutch, gear ratios (also chassis stiffening as the std cars crack around the rear with wide tyres) etc etc.

In short, unless they're so stuck on a 308, I think they'd work it out for themselves that a different model would be the far better cost effective solution. BUT if they did INSIST on a 308, then what you are doing is just about the max (without blowing).

 

Thank god I'm not the only one who thinks this way (and seen many many many many many many times!)

 

(Much sarcasm below as Mark knows the MANY mods to the 308 here)


OH NO!!! You changed the way your car came from the factory??? It is now worthless cr#p!!! And that suspension... rubbish!

But seeing how nice a guy i am i will give ya $50 for the car

 

Tbabowksy’s comments have been noted and his overall premise has been a guiding force in our efforts to avoid common pitfalls of this type of project from it inception. It should be noted that this project is not being assembled in somebody’s driveway, nor is it something that we are doing alone. There are upwards of a dozen reputable companies that are providing critical parts with full knowledge of our goals. Virtually everybody that we have approached has been excited to participate. I would be remiss if I didn’t mention the contribution of Steve Demirjian. Without Steve this project would not be possible. Further the method of increasing displacement is now a proven technology. There have been innumerable simulation that have preceded any experimentation.

There are two viable ways to generate more horsepower and torque. One is my boring and stroking the other is to supercharge the engine. These are not mutually excusive. Yes, I have excluded turbos from this discussion. I simply would prefer to avoid barbequing everything in the engine bay. Please Note that Nick will be supercharging his engine. The advantage of blowing a 4-liter is that you start with a new motor, and the new motor is built to higher standards.

For example, the head gaskets for the 4-liter project are manufactured by Cometic. They are multi layer steel gaskets. It is our belief that these gaskets will provide for much better sealing than either the stock gaskets or copper gaskets. The deck is trued after the sleeves are installed, so that everything is perfectly flat and true. The entire package is individually cryogenically treated before assembly. This will help prevent blowing the head off the block in a supercharged application. Cylinders are honed with a torque plate, and all fasteners are replaced with ultra high-end stuff. In other words, the heads studs have been replaced, as well as, the main studs and rod bolts and nuts.

Please don’t tell me that anybody wants us to retain the cast pistons and three compression ring setup. Our pistons are forged, and use a two compression ring design. The rings are “state of the art” and are titanium nitride coated to reduce both friction and wear. This now a common Japanese setup.

All in all, we believe that this is a much superior platform than the stock engine to super charge.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Thus far, you're changing sleeves, pistons, bearings, pullies, water pump, requring special coolant, new cams, changing the flow in the heads, etc. It seems to me that the next logical step is to create your own block/heads (cast or billet). Thoughts? It would be more expensive, but you would no longer need a core or have unknown quality components in the finished product

 

Tillman,

The bottom end of this engine is pretty dog gone strong. The later V8 cars are a modest evolution of the 308 block. Frankly, the 308 block is a great platform to work from. It is my understanding the the F40 uses the 308 block.

I have considered redoing the heads. We have even gone as far to price having new heads cast. The problem is cost. It would be around $100,000 for the R&D work.

If we did up grade the heads all bets are off. We would be able to compete straight up with anything from Modena on per liter basis.

We are not replacing the cams, just reworking them.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Been there and said that: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134669559&postcount=192

Not only did Ferrari improve the mechanics of the car with the 328, 348, 355, etc. they also improved the aero package.

I still cannot understand why these guys with all this talent, do not take on something of their own ... instead of reinventing the wheel (Ferrari has already made a great near 4 litre engine ... and now a 4.3 ltr one).

Like somebody else said ... why not just drop a Chev small block (or LS1) in there!
Pete

 

The last question needs to be placed in context. Why would so many people spend far more money to hot rod a Civic, a 300XZ, or a Supra? It is my belief, that because the entry price to own a 308 is reasonably low that this car will begin to appeal more and more to the tuner marketplace if high performance products are available.

Don’t compare a high performance 308 to 430 Modena; compare it to any other tuner car out there.

As for performance and reliability, our simulation show that a two valve 4-liter 308 will produce around 400 hp with a lot of torque, we estimate that a 4 valve 4-liter will be in the neighborhood of 450 to 475 hp. You can add another 100 to 150 hp if they are super charged. By any measure, that is serious performance.

There are some on this site that are aspiring to own a more contemporary Ferrari that don’t understand the passion that many 308 owners have for their cars. Please look at Steven and Mark’s cars posted above. They are absolutely beautiful and will remain such. For some of us, we have watched each new model be championed by the press as the latest and greatest. Only to observe them exiting the stages as their moment in the spot light ends. Frankly, in silhouette many of the new Ferraris look like a bar of soap.

Why focus initially on the 308…because it is an affordable classic…because there are over ten thousand of them out there.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

I have WAY over $12,000 invested into my 348, and that is just to keep it on the road. Nothing fancy shmancy, just the normal wear and tear stuff that needs keeping up. By most Ferrari standards, my car is in bad shape. The windows suck, the heating and a/c don't work, the door locks don't work, my rims have loads of curb scars on them, I have a busted fog light that needs replacing, my paint is even a custom rosso neopolitain, hahahaha. But you know what I don't give a rip! I have too much fun driving it. Shoot, I seriously would consider having the 4.0 job done one my 348 when the time comes for a rebuild. My only hold back would be if it could past the California emissions test. Now if that can be done, oh baby! A smog legal 448 (4 liters, 4 valve, V8) that puts down 450 ponies. Yeah that would be worth $20G's. Mark Like I said before keep up the good work. I suggest dropping the subject for now. Don't post anything until it is running, and you guys have all the power and performance figures. Then start a new post on the completed project. Have a look in the Aussi section on the twin turbo 355. Some may think that they ruined it, but then again there are those that think it is great. I'm with the latter. Oh one last thing..............STOCK SUCK!

 

The attached photographs contrast the stock Ferrari rod with the 4-liter titanium rod option. The stock rod weighs 596.5 grams, while the titanium rod weighs only 344.5 grams. That is a 252 gram reduction in mass per rod, or 42.25 percent reduction.

Please note that the titanium rod is of H-beam design and incorporates aircraft quality fasteners. The stock rod bolt and nut are not of premium quality.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis.

 

Sorry about that.

Mark Lewis

 

I'll try again.

Mark Lewis
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Mark:

I'm sure that your engine mods will work, and do what you say they will. Assuming that is what happens, what about the suspension, the brakes, etc. All of those specific items need replacement, or upgrades, no? Better shocks? Probably in order also. Maybe some wider wheels, with a little bodywork thrown in to make sure that the fenders cover the tires? The list goes on and on.

What I'm saying is that unless someone is totally stuck on the 308, they'd be a lot better off getting a 355 and making payments. Been there done that, and it wasn't fun is what I'm saying.

Art