Nick's 308 to 4.0 conversion

The suspension will be upgraded as well. There are numerous options that are available to the consumer in the market place. I am affiliated with Nick, so I will start with the suspension components that he sells.

Purchasing a later model Ferrari is not always a panacea. Remember that the 355 is still a used car and has it own set of quirks. Nick referenced some the service problems and maintenance bulletins associated with the 355.

In the end, I choose to upgrade the 308 for the following reasons.

1. When I am done, I will have a brand new, hand crafted engine build to extraordinary standards. The 4-liter engine is not a production-based motor.

2. It my belief that the 4-liter engine will ultimately be more reliable.

3. The 4-liter will be more fun to drive because of more torque.

4. The total cost will be less for 4-liter.

5. I would probably modify any Ferrari that I purchase anyway.

6. By the time that we are finished with the 4-liter engine there will be a lot of upgraded part that will be available to everybody.

An example of the some of the benefits that will accrue to the average 308 owner is that we are negotiating with our cryogenic treatment company for special pricing for Ferrari owners. This will be very beneficial to all of those are replacing brakes or flywheels. When treated these parts will last up to 4 to 7 times longer. Imagine, brake rotors that don’t warp and will not need to be replaced. This would be particularly valuable to someone who has invested in big brake kit. This would provide a little extra insurance for those that have invested some serious cash.

All 4-liter engines will be cryogenically treated. Engine builders will be able to treat all or part of their mechanical components. This process is used extensively in aerospace, and most forms of racing.

The process is a patented system whereby a metal part is treated by slowly lowering and raising temperatures from 300 F to –300 F over about 48 hours. The end result is that the metal part is stronger, more resistant to wear, and expands more uniformly. It has a particular beneficial impact on aluminum. This is a good thing because most of the engine is aluminum.


Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

Mark Lewis

 

The four litre engine project dovetails very nicely with my own Mondial Z project in that I am updating the Mondial concept (mid-engined practical 2+2) to a much more modern design, yet still retaining Ferrari/Pininfarina DNA. Nick, Steve and Mark (and their supporting partners) are creating an updated version of Ferrari's original engine design with the same philosophy. Some may say (Tillman - between the lines?) that they are only one step away, i.e., casting the engine block and heads, from creating a completely new engine. That can also be said of my project (I am only a chassis short of a new car) however, the point is that neither of us are taking that last step (at least at this stage).

People ask "why spend all this time, effort and money into an old car [or old engine] when you can buy a newer car for the same or less money?" The answer is that no one has built "my car". Cars are designed and built (generally) to appeal to as large a section of the target market as is possible and as such they are compromised in my view. On the assumption that both projects (four litre and Mondial Z) are completed, it will be possible to turn a +20-year-old tired Mondial into a 475 horsepower mid-engined practical and relatively lightweight 2+2 supercar that, even though it will be relatively expensive when compared to a standard Mondial, it will perform exceptionally and be cheaper than modern or contemporary competition (I can't actually think of a modern equivalent). Before anyone comments about brakes and suspension, yes these will be up-rated.

What the future holds for a complete new design is another question altogether...

 

All those can be done for less than $4000. Add another $2k for wider wheels. You can fit 9" wheels w/o wider body work.

 

I have got to agree here. Initially I bought a 308 with the intent of upgrading to a later model when I could afford one. Now I can I don't like what I see. The 348 is not as good looking a car in my opinion the 355 is worse its styling is starting to look very outdated and I can't really afford a 360. I would rather throw 20k into my 308 to improve its performance and quality as I feel it is the best small Ferrari out there with the possible exception of the 246 Dino. I also think in the future (5-10 years) you may see 308/328s selling for more than 355s!!! Similar things are happening with pre 1974 911s. In the UK Autofarm are even converting late models to look like the early ones at tremendous cost and they are selling. Not forgetting all the $100k plus re-engineered Etypes being sold. Basically there is a massive market for classic styled vehicles with modern performance and upgrades and the more of this stuff being developed for 308s the better..............

 

Last time I looked at a modern aircraft it did not have a 4 stroke reciprocating engine ... thus 'aircraft' quality has no relevance to connecting rod bolts.

Why not just state the grade of the fasteners, old and new ... drop the over bandied around aircraft quality comment.

Next we will be installing aircraft quality seats and made to eat the food

Pete
ps: Sorry but the term 'aircraft quality' is soooo over used and BS. Not all fasteners on a plane are good or top quality ... like all good designs an aircraft is strong where it needs to be and uses the best where required, not everywhere.

And this whole direction is just sad IMO. If you want a new car, buy a fncken new car. If you want an old car, accept its faults ... they are what make it an old car. Take that out of the old car and you end up with a souless new car ... remember guys it is about the driving!

 

Pete,
I see your point and admire your traditional views but I find them unrealistic when applied to sports car owners in general. With such reticent views it reminds me of the demise of the British automotive industry in the '70's because of their steadfast commitment to live in the past instead of embrace the future advances in the industry.

This whole direction is nearly 100 years old. You might as well get used to it.

All of the great ideas they got for the new cars was from making improvements (ruining) on the old ones. Some of us can't afford new cars.

Fine! If I want an "old" car I'll buy one for the sake of having an "old" car but that isn't the reason most people buy them. They buy them to DRIVE and they want to enjoy the experience while doing so. There are many old cars that drive like crap.

No, Not true, sorry, can't buy it.......... ...

YES! It's about the driving. So lets make it enjoyable to drive instead of relying on 60 year old brakes and friction shocks.

Modifying a car is not necessarily ruining it unless it is a one-of-a-kind concourse example and since when did any car maker ever listen to what the customer wanted and IF they did could YOU afford it?

 

Most of the time it is because the old car has not been maintained ... ie. shocks are fncked, brakes also, engine down on power. Rebuild that car to its as it left the factory specs and I bet it would drive a heck of a lot better.

That is one of the big problems with the old car industry ... most restorations are only skin deep and thus the cars drive like bangers.

Fair enough ... but I like the way old cars do not isolate you from the road and how you have to be able to drive to change gear, etc. I understand that what the 4 ltr engine does not change this ... but it is still trying to make something that it isn't ... thus might as well drop a Chevy in there.

Those Jaguar modern conversions on E types and Mk2's aim to take the old car driving experience completely away ... read the sales cr@p.

A 308 does not have friction shocks and nothing much has changed since they were built ... just electronics, so rebuild to standard and enjoy the 70's experience I say.

True, but modifying a car this substantial will cost more than you think ... after you have broken your first gearbox, etc. and cracked a chassis member due to overloading. By the time you finish working through strengthening all the components ... er, you might as well have bought another car.

The advantage of modifying your existing car comes in down to the fact that you can pay the modifications off over time ... to buy a new car costs mucho $$$'s up front. So I do understand ... but in most cases you will ne financially better off if you stuck the money in the bank and in time bought the new car. I've wasted small fortunes (to me) on track modifying cars ...

Pete

 

"What Mark is offering is essentially an upgrade to a little bit more power for the 308. I've been there in bikes. I've never had good luck modifying vehicles like that. Whenever you make an improvement, someone else ends up lacking."

I couldn't agree more...However, I don't need to push my car to the "nth" level all the time, perfection is relative. I use my car in the true sense of "GT" so I'm not worried about uncovering other shortcomings that more power would produce, i.e. I have no desire to track my car competitively...

I am starting to look for another engine for my 308. I will not permanently modify my car, what I take off will get carefully stored for "purist insurance." If it'll bolt in, I'll change it!

I want to SEE and Drive in a modified car when this 4.0 is complete; it'll probably take a few years to sort everything out...that's okay. This project is exciting, and this is the longest sitting I've ever had on F-chat...a real tribute to the desire the 308 creates.

The price is doable for this 4.0L mod...{I spent $6K on rebuilding an engine (and other maintenance items) on my pos 914. I love the car, I sucked a valve and blew it up. The body/chassis/interior were (and are) pristine condition. It's not a six, just a lowly 4cyl. I just love the car for what it is, so I spent the $ to keep it alive.} I'll do the same for the F-car, hopefully without grenading the original engine though. I'd rather pour $20K into this hobby than see myself watch my "new fricken car" depreciate like a boat anchor!

So, I genuinely look forward to how this project materializes. I may be a customer...I also love my 308, but would like some more power.

BUT, we should all remember, no matter how much $ & HP you pour into a car, there will always be someone out there who will be faster, have more money, etc. At least we haven't stooped to strapping JATO bottles onto our cars. PeterB.

 

OK, since there are more than a few people who would like more power from their 308, I bring up the question... How far would you go to get it, and, how far is too far?

There are other lightweight aluminum V-8 platforms already on the market
that use modern technology, and have a number of after-market performance parts available for them.
The research to these platforms have already been done by companies that have deep pockets for R & D.
These motors already have a larger C.I. displacement,
and greater net H.P. and torque numbers available than a bored and stroked 308.

I would suggest that those doing mod's to their 308 could really give a hoot about originality, and aren't the ones concerned about point deductions at shows.
So if thats the case, why not swap a lightweight modern powerhouse inline with a porsche trany for less cash and greater gains?

And don't give me any of that malarky about killing the soul of the 308 by changing the engine.
If you really thought your 308 had a soul, you wouldn't be performing modifications to it in the first place.

Its OK, I'm wearing Nomex.

 

Decent, larger brakes will cost about 4 - 6k, plus any installation costs. Balancing the new brakes with the car, will require some track time with a knowledgeable individual to set them up. Cost on that: 1k, maybe. What about ABS? With the increase in the performance, with better brakes, maybe an aftermarket ABS is also something to think about. Wheels will cost about 3k, and figure another 2k for the tires. So, we've got another 10k plus the motor, and we haven't even gotten to the suspension pieces. Say another 2k for those, assuming that we just use standard, high quality improved shocks. If you want to add adjustable suspension, to take full advantage of the new car, add another 2k. 14k plus the motor, which is 30k. That's another 44k added to the price of the 308. Seems like that buys a 355. If you've got to have a 308, so be it, but for everyone else, buy the 355.

Art

 

Blasphemy I say!

Seriously, the one mod I personally find offensive is when the engine and body bands do not match. I don’t know why, but it bothers me. I don’t like a 32 ford with a chevy engine any more then I would like a Ferrari with a chevy engine. Drop a 355 or 360 engine in a 308 and I’ll applauded, but drop in chevy, lexus or whatever else and I’ll just shake my head. That is over the line even for me.

 

Honestly, you are living in 360 land. To make the brakes on a 308 as good as a 360, $4k-$6k is probably about right. But the truth is that they are already just fine as they are on the street. So the cost range for brakes is $0-$6k, it just depends on what you want to do with the car. My 308 is well over 500hp with really wide wheels and stops just fine with stock brakes...although I wouldn't even think about running at a track the way it is set up, but since I'm never going to run it at a track anyway, I just don't care that much, although it is on my some day list.

Shocks are the same thing. For most people the stock $130 each Konis work just fine and $1000 set can make a big improvement. I do autocross my car, so I put a set of adjustable Ohlins shocks and springs on for $2400 and it made a night and day difference in my enjoyment of the car. And that is the point of custom stuff. You don't need to fix everything, and you don't need to do all the work at one time.

These are 308s we are taking about, they can be made to perform a lot better, and a few things can even be made state of the art. The whole car will never be state of the art, but most peole are only really concerned with one or 2 key areas. That is what this thread is all about, the car is pretty good, but the main complaint is that it's really under powered, and that can be fixed.

 

You're way out of your depth here art. Brembo has an upgrade kit available for $2500 and it does not require track time to set up. And most of the 308 owners here do there own work.

 

A former editor of C&D magazine published a book recently -- titled something like "The Gold Plated Porsche". He started with a $20K car. Spent $50K sorting/upgrading etc and ended with a $20K car. When asked why, he agreed it made no economic sense, that the later models were a better financial proposition etc. But still did it.

The 308 is, for some of us, the same story.

My guess is I have $30 - 40K into mine beyond the purchase price, possibly more. Mark, you?
Philip

 

Not one to be left out of this... i am near where you are Philip in price. Agree that it may not make sense to mod things to such a high degree, but sense when did anyone say major modifications to anything Ferrari makes sense to begin with

 

Since when did anything "Ferrari" make any sense at all?

 

...................and the simple reality sinks in......................

 

The following is an article in “Corvette Fever Magazine” that details Steve’s MID methods on an LS1 block. I am posting it here because it is directly applicable to the 4-liter project.

Thanks,

Mark Lewis
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I am in 360 world. The HP that the 4 liter engine makes is exactly what a 360 makes. You'll need brakes that good, with the new tires, they'll have to balance the braking, etc. I don't mean to sound pessimistic here, but I've done just this with bikes. Start with a 75HP bike, put 120HP into it, replace the brakes, wheels, tires, modify the frame (started wobbling with the extra power and sticker tires, which by the way, that 308 just might start to do, once you've done all these things. Remember, the factory made stiffer and stiffer frames, wonder why?).

Point is, this is going to be costly, very costly, and those thinking about doing it, better be prepared to put into the conversion, what it needs, or to get the improved version that the factory made, i.e., 348, 355, 360 or 430.

Art

 

Horsepower will be similar, but the 4-liter will have more torque than a 360. The 4-liter should be a more drivable engine because of the torque. The 4valve 4-liter will have more hp and torque.

I believe that the 308 GTB tubular frame is plenty stiff. We will see about the GTS? Brakes and suspension will be upgraded.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Bikes are a COMPLETELY different animal than cars. There is a lot less there and they are no where near as stiff to begin with. And three people have already pointed out that there are lots of wheels and at least one really good brake kit, a larger sway bar, improved shocks and springs (the suspension geometry is just fine by the way) available for the 308.

You know, if I'm ever in Ca and I need lawyer, I'm calling YOU. No, I don't agree with your politics at all, but you must be a damn good lawyer. I've never seen you give in to one single point regardless of the overwhelming arguements against you. (really, not being a smart ass here).

 

"I believe that the 308 GTB tubular frame is plenty stiff"

Sorry, but it's 30 year old tube chassis has flex like a wet noodle compared to modern cars like the 360, and the GTS is even worse.

I have completely rebuilt the suspension on my 308GTB with modern fully adjustable components, dropped 300lbs from it's diet, and done a number of blasphemous things to it that make it faster than most of the normally aspirated 308s on the road.
But I'm a realist, and the fact is, no matter how much torque I add to it's engine, it will not out handle its modern counterparts like the 360 or the 430.

And if it's "suspension geometry is just fine"...
Then why did Ferrari change the geometry in mid 1988?

I have not always agreed with Art's opinions.
But he is spot on with this one!
The 360, and now the 430, are the modern evolution of the 308.

 

It seems like you've moved away from "I like the project, but have one question" stance, and have settled on outright dissent.

It was clear to me on page one of this thread that everything in this project is being over engineered, which is exactly what I would want if I were to do such a project.

Enough second guessing already. If anyone doesn't agree with the concept, please move on. Not everyone wants a modern car. Things like over 1000lb additional curb weight, power steering, and traction control are not part everyone's formula for an idea sports car. The older cars have something to offer than the modern cars are losing more and more of with each new generation.

One final though: it's the journey, it's not the destination. There is no rationalizing a labor of love.

 

Well of course the frame isn't as good a s a 360, but that isn't the point really. The point is added hp to a car makes it accelerate faster and that's about it. For normal use, it does not necessitate any other changes. If you don't believe that take a trip down to the local drag strip and see just how many really high hp car you see with horrible suspension and wet-noodle frames, basically everything there.

If you are going to the track, the extra power will mean more speed on the straights, and that will require better brakes to keep it safe, but the suspension will still work the same as always. If you change wheel/tires to get more speed through the turns, you will need suspension work at a minimum and that might require stiffening the frame...but that is just to make better lap times, the car is not going to act weird.

My 308 GTS is well over 500 hp and it drives just fine, nothing hypothetical about it. It does well at the autocross. It will simply destroy a 360 or the new 430 as long as the road is straight, put it on a road course and the tables will be reversed. I know that, but since I don't go to the track, it makes no difference at all to me and I see no reason to invest any time or money into improving it's track prowess. So any time I run into a 360, I can beat it easily with my lowly 308 because I built my car to perform well everywhere I drive.

But we're getting off track here (sorry about the pun...ok I'm not sorry), it's a cool engine project with or without any other mods to the car.

 

ABS.

Art is talking about making the 308 into a race car. The point of this project is to add torque and power to the 308, not turn it into a race car.

And no one is trying to make it into a 360. 360 are 4x the cost of a 308 and 20+ years newer. Of course they'll handle better. They were designed to take advantage of tire technology which did not exist in the 1970's.