Nick's 308 to 4.0 conversion

I'm not talking about making the 308 into a race car. I am talking about thinkng about what we're doing here. If the concept is to totally up date the car, then why not use what Ferrari has done to update, which is probably a lot better than what we could do. If Mike is building a dragster, then his project would be great. If the person really wants that body style, then by all means use Mike's stuff.

My point is think about what you're doing before you get into this deal. You could easily spend enough to have bought a 355, 360 and not have as good a vehicle when you're done. Depends upon what you want, what your usage is to be, etc. I personallly like the lines on the 308/328, and will probably own one sooner or later. However, if I want modern performance, I'll buy a modern car, not try to update the 80s

that was my point.

Art

 

Art,
I understand your point of view completely and also disagree with it completely. For one thing, I don't think there is one person this thread that would do EVERY modification discussed in this thread to their 308 so your point about the wasted money equalling a 355 or 360 is moot. I don't believe there is a person here that is trying to make their 308 into anything else other than a 308 but I'll bet you there are a few that can hold their own on a road course with a 360 .

You talk like these are toasters. In essence, "I like the look of my old one but the new one works better so I'll just buy a new toaster".

These aren't appliances we are talking about here and again I will say, not all of us can go out and buy a new car because it performs better so we have to settle with a few upgrades on our old ones and try to maximize as well as balance the package of increased power and required improvements in handling. It isn't an "All or nothing" issue but that is the way you are treating it.

I've been doing my share of Hot Rodding for 30 years and an old design can ALWAYS be improved as long as it is balanced throughout the car. The 308 is not by any means an engineering masterpiece and leaves a huge potential of possibilities to make it the better car it could have been if it wasn't for the budget minded "Get it out the door as cheaply and quickly as possible" management mentality had at that time.

Whats 20k for a new 4 liter engine compared to 35k more for a tired Testarossa or 50k more for a beat 355.

I'll take the new engine in my paid for 308. Down the road I'll buy that new toaster when I when I lose my interest in improving on existing engineering designs.

DJ

 

There are those that have already demonstrated the demand for this project. They have called and requested that they be on a waiting. Many others have expressed a genuine interest, but are waiting for us for finish the project. We thank you.

We are confident that the 4-liter project will absolutely blow people away. The intention is to develop the engine to the point that it is so much fun to drive, that people will give serious consideration to using the 4-liter as a daily driver. To this end, we have focused an inordinate amount of time on reliability.

For those with a quatrovalve, a 328, 348, or 355…we are going to modify them too. This is not a one engine wonder.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

1. I wouldn't be putting the 20k into the 4 ltr 308 if I had plans of selling it in the future. I would leave it stock if that were the case.

2.That same 20k upgrading to a 348, which more than likely would need work, would also be down the drain paying for an immediate service.

3. The 40k to upgrade to the tired TR is down the drain too. Most at that price will need service. Thats the way it goes regardless of the model.

4. If and when I do sell the 308 I fully expect to take a loss whether I modify it or not. It's the nature of the business. Since when does anybody NOT lose money on a sale after maintenance is figured in?

So what was the question? .........or point?

 

Selling a hot rod is a bit tough. If all the components match well, sometime you can get a good price for the complete package. More often though, like a 308 with monster engine, you would sell the engine first. Let people drive it and inspect it, then when the big dollar engine is sold, you drop in a more stock version and sell the car.

Even if you don't sell the engine off separate, if you start with a car that needs an engine job anyway, you're only out the difference between a stock rebuild and the hop-up, in this case about $10k.

Or lets say you do none of those thing, you just take a $20k hit when you sell the car, but lets say you drove it for 3 or 4 years before selling it. How exactly is that different from any other car? If I keep my $20k and sell the 308 for $30k then take the whole $50k to the dealer and buy a new car with it. Generally that new car will lose 10% when it leaves the lot and 10% per year for the first 4 year, so after 4 years, it's worth $25k. So again, how is that better than "wasting" money maintaining or hotrodding a 308?

Honestly, you can't use and enjoy anything and not expect it will cost something. Older Ferraris are pretty stable price wise, but require pretty expensive maintenance. Most people ignore that when they sell and claim they if they bought for $30k and Sold for $32k, it was a profit….not mentioning the thousands they poured into it to keep it running and up to par. JMO

 

Spasso and I have exchanged ideas and dreams for future Ferrari acquisitions...I can honestly say I've mentioned having another motor/trans to "monster-out" my 308 while preserving all the stock goodies. If done with care and taste, it will not decrease the value of the car, particularly with a crate of all the original pieces carefully preserved along side.

This 4.0L conversion project is one I'll watch carefully, I believe it will work just fine for my driving style...more passing power and torquing out of corners. As for the suspension and braking arguments here, for 10/10 driving I agree some upgrades are in order, but not a necessity for street use.

Again, a future customer is here waiting to SEE IT GO! PeterB.

 

Guess that depends on the streets you drive and your driving style accordingly

On one street here you brake too late or you slide a bit during the turn and you will crash directly into the HUGE boulder on the side of a mountain. Other roads here do have guard rails, but without those or if you go over one it is a HUGE down'er. It's not the fall that may be so bad, but that sudden stop really can do some damage(!).

<Evil Grin> Come to my New England mountain top home and allow me to show you some roads.
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Reminds me of when I used to live in Monaco.

 

Reminds me of the drive up to my vacation house in Tibet....................................

 

4-liter Project Update:

Sleeves:

Based on the feedback that we have received from this website, we are now evaluating various coating options for the 4-liter sleeves. The reason for this modification is to allow the 4-liter to run water instead of coolant for track days.

The exterior of the sleeves will be coated to prevent erosion associated with cavitation of the coolant around the cylinder. Each time the cylinder fires the sleeve will vibrate or ring. This will move a minute amount of coolant in harmony with frequency of the sleeve. Over time this movement can actual erode the sleeve. It is not a problem with Evans Coolant because of its increased viscosity, but with water it could be problematic. Our solution is to coat the outside diameter of the sleeve.

Without the corrosion inhibitors in antifreeze the sleeves will rust. By coating the sleeves rust can be controlled. We will keep you advised.

Water Pumps:

The first batch has been completed. In my opinion, the upgrade water pumps are simply amazing. I have attached some of the latest photographs of the pump. Please notice the attention to detail and overall craftsmanship. It has taken us about a year to reach this point, but it was worth it. If you are interested in one of these water pumps contact Nick.

It is our belief that the new water pump is a definite improvement over the stock unit. One of the benefits of the 4-liter project is the trickle down effect of quality products to the average 308 owner. Given the overall age of the 308 fleet, we believe that there a literally thousands of marginal pumps that would benefit from being replaced with a pump that has superior pumping capacity and heavy-duty bearings and seals.

Where is Ferrarifixer to tell you that you don’t need one?

This would also be a good time to switch over to Evans NPG+ Coolant. Summer will be here before you know it.

Thanks,

Mark Lewis
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They look great but one problem I see, if you run the stock pulley set up the end shaft must be threaded and keyed.

if you use your pulley can you still run the other pulleys: crank and alt with the stock belt?

 

I'm right here Mark, keeping my eye on you and your claims.......

What is the price on these pumps, including the necessary pulley changes to make it work and fit etc.

A new Ferrari supplied pump is about 250GBP and can be fitted in 4-6 hours, they have a slightly redesigned impellor too.

 

The pump does not use the stock pulley, nor is it attached in the stock manner. A new pulley is part of the pump assembly. It can be spec’d to be the stock size or overdriven. If an overdriven pulley is ordered then a different length belt will be needed. The other dimensions of the belt remain unchanged. No big deal. The 4-liter engine will use a 20 percent overdriven pulley in accordance with the water pump manufacturer’s recommendations.

Cost will be finalized by this weekend. Ferrarifixer, we will offer it to you at a special price…nice to see that you are still around.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Thanks, I feel special now!!

I don't know how all the 308's in Australia have coped without your pumps for so long!!

Ok, that's enough sarcasm for now.........

 

Ferrarifixer,

I am worried that you are going soft on me. Are you feeling a bit under the weather?

As for the two or three 308 water pumps that seem to be working ok down under, maybe I could entice you guys by casting a Kangaroo on the side of the housing?

Hang in there.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

New Aussie 308 pump avail.
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Does it flow backwards like the toilets?

 

Would your new scrolled impeller design be a direct bolt-on replacement for the OEM straight-flute one? Seems like, if so, there'd be a whole slug of folks ( ... like me) who would want to make the change the next time a water pump re-do is in order.

And, if not, would there be anyone else interested in such an easy bolt-on upgrade?

I have always scratched my head over the OEM straight flute impeller design - makes no sense to me.

 

The upgrade water pump impeller doesn’t fit on the stock shaft. If you go back look at some of the photographs that have been posted on this thread of the stock impeller you will notice that the stock shaft is square. Ours is round. The new pump is a direct bolt on replacement.

The reason that we recast the housing is so that we have a reliable source of high quality cores. Originally, we had hoped to be able to reuse the OEM housing. Unfortunately the condition of the original housings were not up to our standards. After two plus decades of corrosion, we are unwilling to reuse marginal parts. In addition, the aluminum of the stock housing is not as good as we are able to cast ourselves.

The upgraded water pump has superior seals and bearings. This setup should last the life of the car. If you only replace the impeller, then you are still stuck with OEM bearings and seals, which are a major reason that the stock water pump is replace so often.

If you were to turn a new stock water pump by hand you will notice that it takes quite a bit of effort to turn the impeller. Our bearings are such that the impeller spins more freely. Also, because of the inherent efficiency of the scroll type impeller the upgraded water pump will require less horsepower to pump an equivalent volume of coolant.

The upgraded pump will be price so that it will be an excellent value.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Production of the initial batch of water pumps is complete. The last step in the process was to determine the gasket thickness. These pumps have about .020 clearance between the impeller and the housing. Anything more will result in a less efficient pump. Notice that the stock impeller is a cast piece while the upgraded impeller is machined. Our impeller can be made to more exacting standards. Frankly, this is not a mass produced pump, but rather a hand crafted unit.

I have included photographs that contrast the stock pulley with our pulley. Our pulley is machined from aluminum and then hard anodized. The diameter of the pulley remains stock. The pulley itself has been modified slightly to more perfectly track with a stock belt. Examination of the stock pulley showed that the belt was riding a little high in the V groove of the pulley. This has been corrected. The result is that belts should wear less rapidly and track more correctly with the aluminum pulley than the stock pulley. This is a minor improvement, but nevertheless an improvement.

There have been several questions about how the pulley is attached to the shaft. I believe that the pictures clearly show that the pulley is attached with four bolts, not dissimilar to the method used for on a domestic water pump.

Steve weighed the pulleys just for the heck of it. The stock Ferrari pulley weighs 539 grams, our new aluminum pulley weighs 154 grams or 385 grams lighter. There are 454 grams to the pound by the way. This is just another area in which rotating mass has been reduced in the 4-liter project to enhance performance. It all adds up!

The stock shaft is .590 of inch and the in new shaft is .750

On of the major deficiencies of the stock water pump is that the stock impeller is bolted, not pressed on to the shaft. This means that the impeller is not perfectly perpendicular to the shaft. In fact, because the darn impeller is not quite true, it wobbles on the shaft. Not only does this mean that impeller to housing tolerances are a joke, it also means that the seal is not perpendicular to the shaft. Did you want to know why the stock pump fails? This is the primary reason that the seals don’t last. They don’t last because of flaws inherent in the original design.

As a side note, our water pump manufacturer stated that the technology of the stock 308 water pump dates back to the 1930’s. Where is Ferrarifixer when I need him? I truly don’t understand why anybody would rebuild a marginal design when a vastly superior option is readily available. Let me summarize, our pump has;

1. a better impeller,
2. a superior quality of casting,
3. higher precision of manufacturing tolerances,
4. a stronger shaft,
5. a better seal,
6. a lighter pulley,
7. a more contemporary design,
8. greater pumping capacity,
9. a longer service life, and
10. less cavitation.


For the record, the design, manufacture, and marketing of this product is a joint venture between Nick Sciana, Steve Demirjian, and Mark Lewis. Nick is a sponsor of this website.

Testing of this new water pump is also being conducted by a few Ferrari Chat members to provide a non-biased assessment of the attributes of this new product.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis
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There have been some that have posted their firm conviction that the stock water pump is adequate. We disagree with this assertion. Perhaps it would be helpful to detail the limitations of the stock design.

The basis of the problem is that the stock impeller and seal are not pressed onto the shaft. The shaft OD is a machined surface and as such is true. If the stock impeller and seal were pressed onto the shaft then the sealing surfaces would be perfectly perpendicular to the shaft.

Unfortunately, the stock impeller has a square hole that fits onto a square shaft and is held on with a nut. There is some play between the shaft and impeller so the impeller is not perfectly centered on the shaft. In addition, the shaft mounting surface in the center of the impeller is not machined. The result is that the impeller and thus seal contact surface usually have a slight wobble. If the seal contact surface does not run true the carbon seal will wear out prematurely from the pressure of the spring forcing it up against the wobbling steel contact sealing ring.

We believe that this is a fundamental flaw that can be addressed by a more contemporary design. There are some on this site that have expressed great satisfaction by replacing the seal when it eventually leaks. We applaud such industry. Regrettably, the solution is only a temporary fix. We would suggest that people look into upgrading the stock pump with one that will have a much longer service life and at the same time much increased flow capacity. Photographs have been enclosed to help those follow this discussion.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis
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Careful Mark, you're beginning to make stuff up again. You're a serial scare tactician.........

How can you disagree that the stock water pump is adequate, when there are simply so many examples that prove them to be just that. ADEQUATE, and servicable, and easy to get parts for.

Yes, your pumps are "probably" better, but Ferrari pumps ARE adequate, available, servicable, original but above all.... PROVEN in road and race use.

Until one of yours has done 100,000 miles in 4 years, and/or only 100 miles in 8 years, you better make claims you have data for.

 

Ferrari Fixer just wanted to let you know that these guys have scared me into buying the new water pump......I am so scared I couldn't help myself. In fact I was so scared I bought a Electromotive ignition system, drop gears and titanium valves among many other things over the past 5 years.

Hope you enjoy living in the past with "adequate" equipment!

Paul
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Lets get the easy stuff out of the way first. This post is dedicated to my good friend, Ferrarifixer. The bearings, shaft, and seals are absolutely proven parts. In fact we have robbed the high performance parts bins of other cars to make the 308 pump…scandalous! There is nothing new here except that the end product is far more than adequate. They have been on the road for many years with a stellar record of performance. No, I am not going tell you which make and model of cars are now missing water pump components. Look at the attached photographs. Your eyes are not deceiving you; the new parts are really as good as they look.

Those components that are unique to the 308 water pump are the housing and the impeller. The housing looks pretty much the same as the stock casting. If you don’t like the stock housing you will not like the new one. The difference is that our pump is cast from a higher grade of aluminum. In a hundred thousand miles or so we think that this will still be a very good thing.

The only novel thing about the impeller is that it has been machined to fit inside the Ferrari housing. It is also designed to be compatible with ordinary coolant or Evans NPG +. In fact, such care has been taken that we are holding .020 clearances between the impeller blades and the housing. Given the inherent wobble of the stock impeller and the fact that it is a cast piece, the stock water pump can’t approach this level of manufacturing precision. I hope that doesn’t sound cocky, but lumping the two pumps in the same category doesn’t do the new pump justice.

Ferrarifixer has acknowledged in past posts that the stock seals will fail in time. We have provided our conclusions of why this is the case. We have also manufactured a solution to the problem. To date, Ferrarifixer has not commented on our findings of why the stock design is flawed.

Ferrarifixer has shared some of his personal experience of why he believes that the stock pump is adequate. This claim has to be balance by a 308 head in my garage that is warped. It is my head. The reason for the distortion of the head is because of excessive heat. The interesting thing is that there were no service related problems with the water pump or any other parts of the cooling system. Yes, the heads were torqued properly. The problem was that the fully stock cooling system was not adequate. Would the car run with a warped head…Yes. Is this situation acceptable…No.

We believe that the engine bay is too hot. We believe that injecting air into the exhaust port generates even more heat. We believe that the exhaust temperature light in the dash speaks volumes about the factory’s concern about heat management. We think that pumping coolant all the way to the front of the car and back puts an extra strain on an already marginal pump. In addition, we believe that if you want to take advantage of the newer ignition systems on the market then your cooling system had better be in top-notch condition to avoid denotation.

We also believe that cooling system problems can be very expensive. If these concerns are scary…so be it.



Sincerely,

Mark Lewis