Nick's 308 to 4.0 conversion

I guess that I will delay my 4-liter update for a little while to address the issue of the electric water pump. This is something that we have evaluated very carefully. First it should be noted that there are very few adequate electric water pumps on the market. Ferrarifixer has identified one of them. Don’t believe all of the marketing claims by electric water pump manufacturers. GPM is generally less than advertised and less under a real world pumping load.

Second we are not willing to risk the health and well-being of a very expensive motor on the stock electrical system. The operation of the electric water pump is contingent upon both the condition and design of the alternator, the fuse box, the battery, and the wiring harness. Many of these components have been found to be suspect by various members of this website. If you are going to upgrade to an electric water pump then each of the above items should be considered for upgrade as well.

When it came right down to it our consultants and us have more faith in a mechanical system than an electrical one. The proposed mechanical upgrade is proven and durable. It also fits a 328.

Sincerely,


Mark Lewis

 

The electrical issues can be overcome quite easily by just making your own specific harness with fuse for the waterpump directly from the ignition switch. Quite easy to do..power and ground. Even if you want to go thermo controlled, or have a variable speed pump..the wiring issues really are non exsistant.

 

The following information may be useful in evaluating the benefits of an electrical water pump setup. The information was gathered by Evans Coolant and Steve Demirjian for the Corvette.

The stock pump flows – 56 GPM
The electric pump Flows – 23 GPM
The Evan pump flows – 85 GPM

One GPM can cool about 10 horsepower, so the Corvette electrical pump is good for only 230 hp. This is great for cruising down the freeway, but horrible for hard driving or tracking the car.

It was estimated that the net gain was about 3 hp.

The estimated useful life of an electrical pump is less than a mechanical pump. Brushes don’t last forever, nor do they give much warning of impending failure. In addition, when it does fail the engine continues to run. In contrast, when a mechanical pump seizes up it is pretty obvious.

To use Ferrarifixer’s logic, remember that the Ferrari F1 engine uses a mechanical water pump that is gear driven off of the crank. You might ask your self why. You might also ask yourself, why the electric water pump represents such a small portion of the water pump market? There may be a reason.

The best application for an electric pump is on the drag strip.

Before anybody blesses the stock alternator as adequate, your should check the amp rating and figure that the electric water pump could draw upwards of 35 Amps depending on the application. The 4-liter engine will have a single wire, 100 Amp alternator and we are not using an electric water pump.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Mark, you're at it AGAIN......... You really must do your research before you keep SCARE MONGERING the population.....

One Davies Craig pump can cool up to 500BHP depending on installation, and they draw only 6 amps AT FULL SPEED, and they only run fast enough to maintain temperature at your desired level. Your flow rates do not match the Davies pumps, so I don't know what your sources are, but I'd question them. If it's all cool, it doesn't pump. Brushes are excellent quality, and will outlast most things. Your average heater/AC blower fan draws more current on full speed, and how often do the "cheap" brushes let you down on those.......

I just had a good chat to Davies Craigs technical and sales guys at the Melbourne motorsport show, so my info is current as of last week.

Your F1 analogy is funny. Just funny.

 

The information mentioned above is from actual testing of existing products in the marketplace for Corvettes by third parties. This testing demonstrates that advertised flow rate of electric water pumps intends to grossly be overstated.

I have already acknowledged that the company that you have mentioned may be one of the very few exceptions.

With that being said, I believe that it is very foolish to choose an electric water pump over a mechanical one for a streetcar. It is a worse decision when you throw in a dated, Italian electrical system into the mix. There are good reasons that electric water pumps are not universally offered in OEM applications. It is simply not worth the cost. It is not worth the risk, and there is only a marginal horsepower gain at best. How many horsepower do you thing the little stock belt is turning on the water pump. Not much!

Ferrarifixer, this is one of those times that you should stick to one of your 400-year-old farmhouse analogues and not get creative.


Mark Lewis

 

Ok, I call BS this time. I would believe they have a pump large enough for 500hp and that the full speed NO LOAD (no water in it) power draw is 6A, but to pump 50 gpm through the engine and radiator takes about 30-50 amps...at least thats what it takes all the other pump makers.

The electric pump I'm using on my intercooler draws about 17 amps to pump 21 gpm, and that is with an open outlet port. Once I actually connect the hoses, and coolers the amps stay at 17, but the flow drops to about 15 gpm....plenty for an intercooler, but but not so good for an engine.

 

Well, they had a running demo at the show, with radiator, tanks and ammeter all hooked up. They answered questions and gave satisfactory answers.

And if anyone will believe Mark over the experience of PRODRIVE and the 550's they build that win endurance race after endurance race, well, they deserve all they get is all I'll say...

The facts are out there guys. Just keep looking and you'll find them......

 

I googled them, but couldn't find anything the pump or company, I don't know where they're hiding.

The reason I look is because if the pump truely only draws 6A, it should be fused at about 7.5A, not 20 or 30 like all the other electric pumps. I think the demo you saw was design to show that it only draws 6A when no cooling is required, ie. the demo setup was cold and the pump is thermostatically controlled, so it should be at it's minimum speed and power draw. Also, was the setup filled with water or coolant, coolant takes more power to pump?

 

Try

http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp?pid=8

 

"They answered questions and gave satisfactory answers."

Did they have indoor plumbing?

Lets deal with the facts on the post Mr. Fixer:

Mark Lewis stated that:

The stock pump flows – 56 GPM
The electric pump Flows – 23 GPM
The Evan pump flows – 85 GPM

The davies water pump flows a maxium of 1300 GPH (their web site) which equals about 22 Gallons a minute (GPM)
So Marks intitial statement is correct.

You state in a post (4 or so back) that the prodrive 550 uses two water davies Electric pumps then obviously 1 pump will not cool the engine.

Mark then states that: "One GPM can cool about 10 horsepower"..... so now we know why the 550 runs 2 electric pumps.

There is a famous quote by Daniel Patrick Moynihan which seems to apply to you
" everyone is entitled to there own opinion but not to his own set of facts"

Watch those splinters!
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"...the experience of PRODRIVE and the 550's they build that win endurance race after endurance race,..."

The reason Prodrive 550 wins is the never before seen (until now)little secret weapon kept in the trunk! (and its not the waterpumpS).
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ROFL!

 

Thanks. I took a quick look at the specs and it's 7.5A for 22gpm, which quite good, but believeable. They don't say what they are pumping so I'd have to assume water, pumping standard coolant will increase both the power draw and drop the flow rate by something like 10% (more for evans coolant). Also, they don't give the pump cuves for pressure, but I think a good guess would be about 15gpm once the engine, radiator, hoses and coolant are in the system.

They seem to be sized for an economy car so you'd need at least 2 to make it work and 3 just to get up to almost stock pump flow rates, 4 if you want improved performance. I figure 25A for 3 pumps, 33A for 4.....just like every other electric pump on the market, but they do make a really nice controler

 

Too high a volume pump is not good either, the water will be moving too quickly through the radiator for it to cool properly there is a balance needed with the gpm flow and proper cooling, it will also cause foaming.

 

The following is some additional cooling system information regarding the radiator:

Coolant to tube area has been increased by 59 percent.
Fin to Tube area have been increased by 80 percent.
Fin to Air has been increased by 10 percent.

The radiator has two rows of 1.25-inch oval tubes.
My stock radiator had 4 rows of 3/8 of inch tubes.
The new radiator is constructed entirely of Aluminum...much lighter!
My stock radiator was constructed of copper and brass...boat achor!

The aluminum cores are custom fabricated to our spec’s and are not an off the shelf piece made to fit a Ferrari. The lower tank is a pain in the rear end to fabricate and the reason most other aftermarket radiator shops ship their radiators without the correct modification to make the unit fit.

There was some question whether my radiator was stock or if it had been recored. The manufacturer didn’t feel like the core was of the quality to be in a Ferrari. Keep this in mind if you are considering recoring you stock radiator.

Sincerely,


Mark Lewis

 

That is an old wives tale. The higher the coolant flow rate, the higher the transfer efficiency in both the engine and the radiator giving the system a higher cooling capacity, but it will take more power to run the pump.

Simply increasing the size of the radiator adds cooling capacity without increasing power draw, so it’s usually the preferred method. I guess you would keep increasing the size of the radiator until you have the largest radiator that will fit. If you still need more capacity, then you increase flow rate until it stays cool enough…assuming the original pump has adequate flow rate, and that has been bought into question here, at least for use with evans coolant.

 

So here we have the news.... If you want a 308 that's any good. Buy one and replace everything....according to some.

Or, just buy the car you want in the first place.

Mark, you did it AGAIN... Where did I say "farmhouse"?

You seem to just keep looking but not seeing. Maybe my old house analogy is flawed, but the principle is easy to see if you want to.

Maybe I should have just said "If you want a classic car buy one, If you ant a modern car buy one. if you want a mongrel with no real identity, make one at more cost and trouble than either of the other two options."

Sloan, you are just blinkered. I clearly said 1 pump can cool 500BHP, you do the maths. it's a simple addition/division one this, but you won't have enough fingers I'm afraid, so call help if you get stuck.

The davies demo was running 30% coolant at full speed. It was set up to show the power of the pump, which was really throwing the water back into the tank.

Remember, with an electric pump, it only does what it needs to. With an engine driven one, it overpumps unnecessarily when the raditator gets good air at high road speeds, and it under pumps when stuck in traffic idling......

Bottom line.... to fit one of Marks pumps on a std engine will cost a lot of horsepower right at the top where they lack/you want it most, as it overpumps massively. If you've got his 4 litre in there, who cares as it's got the grunt to spare, but if you're in a std car, you'll lose a much bigger % of total power than the perfectly adequate std pump. FACT.

So whose is the best way... I don't know or care much, but I do care that people are given the facts, not just whatever fits the product on offer.

 

Fixer,

At this point I think we have all learned that you have "facts" that no one has and up until now they only exist in your little world. As for fingers needed to deal with you and your "facts" I need only one. Do us all a favor and move on to something new where your "facts" can protect someone else.

Watch those splinters!

Sloan

 

The upgraded water pump is far more efficient that a stock water pump. The scroll type impeller is a more efficient mover of coolant. The stock paddle blade impeller will cavitate at mid range rpm’s. In short the upgraded pump will require less horsepower than stock and provide greater pumping capacity at higher rmp’s.

If people are worry about how much power the stock or upgraded pump is using, just check out the strength of the little belt that drives them. I am using a 5 horsepower electric water pump for an architectural water feature. The darn thing has too much pumping capacity, even though it is pumping water up hill and through a large sand filter. I have since designed a by pass to regulate the flow. Sorry for the tangent, but it does show how much water 5 horsepower can really flow.

Forgive me, if the real estate that was referenced in the above post was not a farmhouse.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Disagree, I have experienced this with my trucks for my business as it gets very hot in the desert, I removed the 2 thermostats in the diesel engine to increase the flow rate and it caused the truck to run hotter, I put them back in and it ran cooler.

 

Who do you guys source your Ti rods from? I am getting quotes of over 1k per rod from some sources.

 

Many engines use the thermostat to direct flow as well as control the flow to the radiator, therfore removing it would comprimise the design. That is almost certainly why you got the result you did. I have designed several cooling systems over the years for various products and done months of testing, the result is always the same and matches the text book equations, increased flow rate increases system cooling capacity.

 

Thanks Sloan, but I've fixed a few Ferrari's that have suffered at the hands of marketing gurus over the years., most commonly by putting everything back to factory set up and BINGO!

My facts are from the shop floor, real world, every day, and not from a lab or computer simulation or other dreamt up hypothesis.

You can take or leave it, it's your choice. And I wish you well any way you go.

 

If the “marketing guru” comment is directed at the 4-liter project, I would simply ask how many decades of experience is necessary? Too many decades and you are dead.

For the record, the cooling system modifications have been made in consolation with numerous well-seasoned professionals in the business…not marketing types. The guy that is building the water pumps is an old timer and a veteran of many proven high performance projects. He was recommended by Evans Cooling to manufacture the water pumps.

Steve spent he weekend with a journalist from a Honda tuner magazine demonstrating the how a Honda block is properly machined for MID sleeves. Several other magazines have contacted us to feature the 4-liter project. There are enough Viper, Honda, Nissan, and Chevy engines successfully out there, that I am not worried about having to return the 4-liter engine to a stock configuration.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Make that consultation not consolation.

Sorry about the typo.

Mark Lewis