Nick's 308 to 4.0 conversion

The following is a discussion as to why the 4-liter engine program uses Evans NPG+ coolant:

1. Boiling Point: Regular ant-freeze with 15 psi radiator cap will boil at about 255 degrees F. Evans NPG+ with a cap will boil at about 400 degrees F. Vapor doesn’t not conduct heat nearly as well as a liquid. The vaporization of coolant should be avoided at all cost. Under a load it is not uncommon for anti-freeze to enter the radiator as a frothy mix of coolant and small air bubbles. This is precisely what we are trying to avoid in the 4-liter engine. Air bubbles don’t transfer heat.

2. Surface Tension: Many on this website have advocated the use of a water wetter to improve cooling. This is a good idea. It allows cooler incoming coolant to more easily reach the hottest engine parts. The adverse affects a hot boundary layer of coolant and vapor is reduced with less surface tension. The incoming coolant has greater access to engine parts. Super heated coolant is flushed off of metal parts and is then delivered to the radiator to dissipate heat. NPG+ has about half of the surface tension of anti-freeze. Water wetter is not necessary with NPG+.

3. Molar Heat of Vaporization: As a liquid changes state to a vapor it draws heat from the liquid. As NPG+ changes to a vapor it transfer about 25 percent more heat from the engine than anti-freeze. For this reason it is not uncommon of NPG+ to be slightly hotter compared to anti-freeze while metal temperatures are substantially cooler. Evans has done extensive testing in which both metal surfaces and coolant temperatures are measured at various locations within the cylinder head. Invariably, NPG+ provides superior cooling.

4. Vapor Pressure: NPG+’s vapor pressure is about 60 times less than that of typical anti-freeze. This means that NPG will recondense much more rapidly back into a liquid. Remember that a vapor does not transfer much heat. In addition, the increased vapor pressure of anti-freeze makes this type of coolant more prone to generate vapor pockets in the cylinder head.

5. Density: NPG+ weighs 9.2 pounds per gallon, while anti-freeze weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. There are those that will correctly stated that water has a better specific heat value than NPG+. It is important to balance specific heat with density.

The 4-liter engine will place far greater demands on the cooling system than the stock 308. We have a reduced coolant volume within the engine because we have encroached into the water jacket to increase displacement. We increased displacement by about 38 percent. This extra displacement generates more heat. Increased intake flow, hotter cams, higher compression, and more aggressive ignition timing all add heat to the system. These are some of the reasons that NPG+ is so critical to the success of the 4-liter engine project.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

How do you get coolant between the liners? From the pictures they appear to be fit together leaving no room for coolant flow.

Won't that cause hot spots b/w the cylinders?

 

Below the flange there is a machined flat between cylinders to accommodate coolant transfer. This a similar setup found on MID Hondas and Corvettes. The flat is not large, but large enough to cool the sleeve. See attached illustrations.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis
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You should proofread your illustrations.

"to insecure adequate cooling" is probably not what you meant

 

Tillmon,

Thanks, they were proof read, but I apparently posted an earlier version. Very embarrassing.

Maybe, secure or insure would have been a better choice.

Thank you,

Mark Lewis

 

Ahh, now I see it. I thought the flats were pressed together. I see the offset.

 

The coolant transfer passage is not large, .020 x 1.0 inches. This is one the key reasons that Evans NPG+ is a must for the four liter engine. Don’t panic, these dimensions are currently being successfully being used on other high performance street engines.

In fact the 4-liter is only possible because of recent technological advances. The benefits of Evans coolant has been discussed at length, but gaskets and sleeves have not.

We have contracted to have custom multi-layer steel gaskets produced for both the 4-liter engine and stock bore V8 Ferraris. We will have them available for stock rebuilds very soon. Without these gaskets we would be blowing head gaskets right and left. Neither composite nor copper gaskets are adequate for our application. MLS gaskets do a much better job of handling the shear loads produced by an alloy block and heads, but require a perfectly flat mating surface. The stock sleeves protrude about .002 inches above the deck, which is unacceptable for a 4-liter engine.

Another benefit is that block is now decked with the sleeves in place. The 4-liter sleeves are machined to .0005 of inch of being round. The sleeves are machined using equipment that bathes the sleeves in coolant to hold tolerances. Many sleeves are not manufactured in this manner. These are much tighter tolerances than a stock rebuild. The sleeves are then honed in the block with a deck plate. There are painfully few people that can do the work to these standards.

Not only are these incredible tolerances maintained on the inside diameter of the sleeves, but the outside diameter as well. The lower portion of the block is precisely machined to receive the lower part of the sleeve. The o-rings have been redesigned to provide redundant sealing capability and it also necessitates very close tolerances between the block and the lower part of the sleeve. Each sleeve is custom machined and hand fit into the block. The net result is that you have an engine with superior ring and head gasket sealing.

This is not all, each of these components are cryogenically treated prior to machining. This treatment not only reduces ring and cylinder wall wear, it also helps with the dimensional integrity of the bore when heated to operating temperatures. Cryogenically treated materially tend to expand and contract more uniformly. I hope by now, those reading this thread understand that we are truly attempting to do something very special.

For those contemplating super charging a 308, I would suggest that the manufacturing techniques used for the 4-liter would be highly beneficial.

Sincerely,


Mark Lewis

 

I'm trying really hard to just let you rant on, but I can't help myself on this one....

1) Precisely what "shear loads" does an alloy block/head joint sustain.... I'm really curious here

2) (How) have you made the steel sleeves expand at exactly the same rate as the alloy, in order to remove the requirement of the sleeve Nip/protrusion.

?!?

 

The previous post was not intended to be a rant, but rather a synopsis of the process, which allows the 4-liter engine to be possible. A complete rendition of the manufacturing process would require volumes.

A multi-layer steel gasket requires a flat mating surface. The protrusion of the sleeve in a stock 308 would distort and deform the MLS gasket. The multi layers of this type of gasket create a shear plane to handle the expansion of both the head and the block. If the gasket is not flat then shear motion is inhibited and gasket failure can result. This is not a composite or copper gasket. The gasket manufacturer states that the deck must be flat during installation for this purpose. This system is currently being successful used on wet sleeve, dry sleeve, and cast iron blocks.

The previous post implies that the stock deck protrusion is a function of thermal expansion between the block and the sleeve. This assumption is flawed. Testing has shown that the sleeve actually expands more than the block. This is because sleeve is exposed to far greater heat. In addition, the flange in the block deck indexes the sleeve, not the lower bore of the block that receives the sleeve. The flange in the block is only .325 inches thick. There is simply not enough deck material or heat to compensate for the .002 inches of sleeve protrusion. In affect, the sleeve expands down the bore.

The previous post begs the question; does our system work? The answer is yes. It is working, right now, in many wet sleeve applications. In fact, it is working in hundreds of engines in which Steve Demirjian is directly responsible.

Simply replacing the MLS gasket with a composite or copper gasket would result in gasket failures in a 4-liter engine. This has been tried early on with other MID engines. The MLS gaskets works because the flange on the sleeve and block deck are flat at operating temperatures. Not only do the MLS gaskets work, but also their use provides for a straighter, rounder, and more stable sleeve.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

So I never got excited about head gaskets, but when the OEM I worked at was going to MLS gaskets a few years ago, the benefit was supposed to be that they could better accomodate differing expansion rates between an Iron block and an Aluminum head. At the risk of sounding like I'm not too bright, what expansion rates are the MLS gaskets accomodating on a 308 engine? Al head, Al block... I'm not that hip to the import (i.e. Aluminum) crowd, are head gasket problems common in high performance Aluminum engines merely because of the higher coeff. of thermal expansion? ???

 

Ron you are right. Both Federal-Mogul and Cometic advertise that their MLS gaskets provide superior sealing characteristics for aluminum head and iron block assemblies. This has been correctly attributed to being able to handle the different coefficients of thermal expansion between cast iron and aluminum.

Not only can MLS gasket handle the expansion rates of different metals, they are also able to control the sealing requirements of like metals with large expansion rates. These gaskets are currently being used in all alloy engines from the factory.

Most NASCAR engines use MLS gaskets.

MLS gaskets are more expensive to manufacture.

MLS gaskets retain torque better than other kinds of gaskets. MLS gasket manufacturers claim that re-torquing of head gaskets is unnecessary.

FelPro states that the stopper layer of MLS gaskets “provides a superior primary combustion seal.” This is critical in the 4-liter engine because of the limited space between cylinders. The stopper layer is made from high quality stainless steel.

The embossed outer metal sheets are coated with Viton. The inner layers are flat layers of stainless steel that allow movement between layers. The gaskets don’t stick to either the block or the heads. Each metal layer of the gasket is coated. Where the outer layer is embossed it provides better sealing of cool passages when torqued. The MLS gasket are highly resident to pressure and temperature.

The following is a link to a Federal Mogul website regarding MLS gaskets:

http://www.federal-mogul.com/vgn/images/portal/cit_776/12950726MLS%20Brochure.pdf

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

At the last SEMA show Steve concluded negotiations that will provide the Ferrari market with MLS, multi-layered steel gaskets. These gaskets will be manufactured for the stock 308, 328, and our 4-liter engine project. These gaskets will afford the typical 308 owner the following benefits:

1. The use of these head gaskets will eliminate the need to periodically re-torque the heads. Composite gaskets tend to lose their clamping forces over time. Anybody that has attempted to re-torque the 5-8 bank head with the engine in the car will appreciate the convenience of not having to repeat this task.

2. This is an excellent gasket for those contemplating adding a super charger to a stock 308. A MLS gasket is simply better suited to the higher cylinder pressures and temperatures of a blow application.

3. The most significant benefit may be for those that are rebuilding their engines. The use of a MLS gasket in conjunction with the re-sleeving techniques referenced in this thread by Steve Demirjian should result in a better short block. Stock cast iron sleeves, stock nikasil sleeves, and Darton 308 replacement sleeves are delivered to the engine builder with a honed finished. They are often then installation and torqued into place. This process runs the risk of distorting the already honed surface, which diminishes the engine’s ring seal potential. We believe that this procedure will ultimately distort the dimensional integrity of the bore more than honing a casting iron block without a deck plate.

Our method of block assembly hones the cylinders after the sleeves have been installed in the block. A custom deck plate is used which simulates the load of a torqued head. The sleeves themselves have been machined to with in .0005 of an inch of being perfectly round prior to installation in the block. Any distortion introduced into the sleeve by the deck plate is removed in the honing process. The bottom line is that you end up with a very straight, round finished bore and perfectly flat and true deck.

This is not the end of the story. Our cryogenically sleeves have been tested in other applications to have about double the service life. We are using steel rings that have been treated with titanium nitrite. The ring package uses two compression rings not three like the stock 308 setup. Ring seal is improved. Ring fiction is substantially reduced and ring life is increase. The ring package includes a 1.0 mm top ring, a 1.2 mm second ring, and a 3.0 mm oil ring.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

I don't know much about "Ring Fiction", but there's certainly a lot of it coming from yours.....

Really, just give it up, it's relentless, those that will be sucked in, already are.

 

Ring fiction and ring sealing are very significant. It is apparent from your last post that you are unaware of the relative difference between the coefficient of friction of a cast ring verses a titanium nitrated ring. The coefficient of friction is about 1/10 of that of a stock ring.

As for ring seal, perhaps you would like to take issue with a proven methodology for building performance engines.

Perhaps Ferrarifixer would like to explain the justification for using a three-compression ring set up or why a cast piston is superior to the forged pistons that we are proposing.

Our rings are currently being used by high-end Japanese manufactures to met Federal and State emissions and fuel economy standards. Many ring companies throughout the world are also offering them as an upgrade.

It would seem that the lessons learned form Steve’s extensive race engine experience would be of tremendous value to anybody contemplating a rebuild. A great deal of relevant information has been posted to date and more is possible.

Sincerely,


Mark Lewis

 

Mark
FWIW, my sense is Phil is saying:

"it's all interesting and while I disgree with some of the points/have different experiences, the more general observation is that nothing like this is needed on a 25+ year old engine";

and

"pitch it as an enhancement, but don't tell 'em what has worked for Ferrari for 25 years is unsatisfactory. It isn't..."

A marketer would say, "don't bash the opposition, just sell the benefits of the new"

Phil, sorry to be putting words in your mouth, particularly if I am off base.

 

No, I just think a lot of fiction comes from his ring, and he trips over himself with his spelling trying to stop the flow.

I have no more technical arguments for this brick wall, so I'll just kick balls at it when it amuses me.

 

Why I disagree with Ferrari Fixers on most of his posts in this thread I did take this photo for him on Friday at Sebring at a private tour of the Prodrive Built FIA Championship car.
I asked the Chief engineer about the pumps and he spoke very highly of them but did state that heat issues were a minor problem but those had been addressed.
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Just to chime in /w/ another datapoint on Nick's water pump, mine fit perfectly the first time around with no rubbing of the impeller on anything and it worked quite nicely today in stop & go traffic from one end of LA to the other.

 

It is not my intention of insulting anybody what works on 308s, but in the great American tradition of hot rodding, everything can and will be improved.

On the topic of my last post, there are some very obvious red flags that should draw some attention. In fact, it just might be time to reveal that the Emperor is missing a little laundry. In point of fact, the 308 is good, but far from great. Check out the following red flags.

1. Why would anybody use a 3-compression ring set up? Why wouldn’t two compression rings do the job? What is not sealing properly? What is the incremental cost in performance for adding an extra ring?

2. Why was this 3-compression ring set up replaced by a more conventional ring package in later iterations of the Ferrari V8?

3. Why does the 3-compression ring set up burn so much oil? How many quality cars do you know of that burn about a quart of oil every 750 to 1,000 miles? Any other car that does that would be considered a beater.

There is a problem here. You can embrace the status quo with all of its limitations, or you can fix the problem. We are well on our way to making this engine bullet proof. Part of this process is to select the best sleeve, piston, and ring combination possible for the 4-liter engine. We find recent technological advancements fascinating. We are considering many of them. Proven technologies are incorporated into the 4-liter project.

If Ferrarifixer doesn’t think that friction is a relevant topic for discussion, then I would suggest that he leave the emergency brake engaged and take a little drive. Perhaps he would like to express an opinion regarding the possible applications of Titanium Nitride, DLC, or Tungten Carbide/Carbon or perhaps he would like to quantify their respective coefficients of friction or hardness.

If testing showed that cryogenic treatment of sleeves doubled there service life would you be interested? If cryogenically treated rotors were being offered in the marketplace with a lifetime warrantee would that peek your interest? Would you be interested in what is happening at a molecular level through cryogenics?

If titanium nitrided steel rings lasted longer, sealed better, had less friction, and scuffed less, should you care? By the way what is the relationship between ductile iron sleeves and the above-mentioned rings?

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Hey Mark, are you guys gonna do any emissions testing? Here in California it is a huge deal. It would be nice to have a modified engine that also can pass the rolling sniffer test.

 

Mark.

I'm well aware of cryogenically treated components, and have been using the process since 2000, in this backwards little island called Australia, you're not doing anything new buddy.

You'll also find that rubber benefits hugely from the process, tyres, seals, hoses, electrical cables etc etc. When I last spoke to the company here, they were developing a "drive in" converted container, so you can just put your whole car in, once sensitive components and fluids have been removed... if it takes your fancy.

Your arguments no longer interest me. You're just ranting on and on and it's tiresome. You've got your opinions based on some experience and mostly theory but amazingly, many of your theories come from one particular troublesome car you or your father owned I think i read!!!!, I've got my opinions based on almost entirely experience, and just a sprinkling of theory to back it up.

I suggest you sit back and let the customers do the talking.... may the first satisfied one post how wonderful his 4 litre engine is to drive and "not" maintain VERY soon.......

 

We are very lucky to have acquired 5 sets of titanium rods for the stock 308. One set has been sold. The amazing thing is that these titanium-racing rods have been purchased at about the manufacturer’s production cost. The savings will be passed along. Please note that titanium has gone up in price about 30 percent in the last few months. Titanium rods are not ease to find right now at any price. These rods were manufactured over a year ago. They are being sold as a rod, piston, pin, and ring package that is direct bolt on for a stock 308.

Please contact Nick for details. If you were ever interested in titanium rods this may be a great opportunity for you. The same company that we use for the 4-liter engine makes the rods. They come with premium hardware.

Sincerely,

Mark Lewis

 

Well Mr. Ferrari Fixer I am glad to see that you approve of the Cryogenic process & that you see the benefits. What Mark is doing is spending time trying to explain to many Ferrari owners out there that may not be as knowledgeable on Ferrari as you are. I understand that you may not agree with some of the things that we are doing & that is fine, if we were all the same it sure would be a boring world!

There are many that want even more info and we will be using this forum for that. I get numerous e-mails a day with respect to what is being done when they go to my website I then forward them to this chat site & if they have more questions they can then contact me for additional information. Inquires include some very serious shops in the UK.This one particular shop has been getting 385 BHP with carbs & 2 valve engines & also have built a 3.3 liter engine that has been running 13-1 compression which made 405 BHP & lots of torque. They are using SUNOCO racing fuel but are having head gasket problems. (In my opinion also the use of inferior head studs is not helping) This is real world for us at NICKS FORZA FERRARI. We will be supplying them with Head gaskets & studs, balancers & in the future, (after rigorous testing) 4-liter bottom ends for them.

Another 4 liter spin off, I received a phone call from an authorized Ferrari dealer in the Chicago area, they had a client who’s harmonic balancer bolt came out while the car was running & destroyed the harmonic balancer. Do most Ferrari guys out there know that you cannot get a new harmonic balancer from Ferrari NA at this time for a 328 & the cost is approx $3,000 USD from the dealer? We are supplying the dealership with a new Harmonic balancer with pulley for $699.00, that’s a saving! There is one catch, you have to use a balancer tool to install it as it just does not slide on with your hands like the OEM one (but a new style bolt is supplied also) but If the bolt ever came out it would not destroy the crank snout as its an improved design, I would say that that is a bonus!


We also tried to get an exclusive on the MLS head gaskets for the Ferrari application that Mark has been talking about & using but we could not because FERRARI SPA is now using them from the FACTORY! This is REAL WORLD not some trouble some car that someone used to own. I am not going to waist my time on going back & forth, these are JUST FACTS, REAL WORLD FACTS.


As for calling Australia a backwards little Island, I have some business associates & friends down under that build some of the finest products in the WORLD. No one is saying that we are doing anything new, but what is new is the adaptation of some modern technology to this particular engine design & Steve’s CO PATENTED cylinder liners & his engine building methods. You also have 3 guys who are dedicated in giving Ferrari owners the finest performance products at a reasonable price & if we can improve on something we will & we have! BELIEVE ME THERE IS PLENTY MORE TO COME!


Regards Nick

 

Clear, excellent post

 

Any new developments?