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no 2nd gear when cold

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by bobwass, Dec 1, 2003.

  1. bobwass

    bobwass Karting

    Nov 26, 2003
    129
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Bob Wass
    ok, i'm enjoying the hell out of my '87 328GTS, an am wowed by the responsiveness of the chat participants - sooooo -- here's today's question. i have learned that you cannot engage 2nd gear until the tranny is warmed up, and to shift directly into 3rd gear. but why???
    why won't it shift into 2nd if there is lube in there? why just 2nd gear - whether it is up or down? whynot the other gears? what is special about 2nd gear?
     
  2. Chiaro_Slag

    Chiaro_Slag F1 Veteran

    Oct 31, 2003
    7,731
    CA
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    Funny - As I have just started driving a 328 recently, I have wondered the same thing. It definitely is a tough gear to get into when cold, but is not problem after 10 minutes or so. I too am curious.
     
  3. CraigFL

    CraigFL Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2001
    954
    Panama City, FL
    Full Name:
    Craig

    We have "chatted" about this numerous times and I'm sure you can find a lot of previous threads..

    Some cars are better than others, some people use different oil that they say works better, some synchros work better than others, one person even had a fix that involved the shifter shaft -- it was going into a blind hole and thick oil wouldn't flow out thru the clearances quick enough until a relief passage was machined into the case.

    I just wait until mine warms up enough for easy shifting.
     
  4. BWS550

    BWS550 Wants to be a mod

    Apr 1, 2002
    8,933
    NEW JERSEY
    Full Name:
    BRUCE WELLINGTON
    TYPICAL FERRARI PROBLEM.....MY TRS THE SAME..........JUST LET IT WORK UP.SIMPLE AS THAT.........DONT STRESS BUDDY

    BRUCE
     
  5. Doc

    Doc Formula Junior

    Sep 13, 2001
    886
    Latham, New York
    Full Name:
    Bill Van Dyne
    This is a very typical quirk w 308's as well. Whatever you do, don't force it into gear before it's warmed sufficiently to shift smoothly. A number of people report that Redline 75w-90-NS makes for quite an improvement. I'll be installing this in my 308 this Winter.
     
  6. zsnnf

    zsnnf Formula 3

    Sep 11, 2003
    1,877
    F40's do it too! But when warm, they shift fast and smooth. Does antone have a link to previos threads on a fix?

    Rick
     
  7. Bmyth-FDC

    Bmyth-FDC F1 Rookie

    Oct 4, 2002
    2,742
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Byron
    Rick,
    I am experimenting with the Non-slip Redline gear oil in my 348 CH. I just put it in on saturday afternoon. I'll let you know how it works out. If it's the magic bullet, we can get under your F40 and swap out your gear oil for this stuff...

    Byron
     
  8. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
    Roswell, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Charles
    This is a universal problem to 308 and 328. AND THERE IS A FIX.

    In the cap between the bellhouse and block there is a small "pocket" or hole that the 2nd shifting bar slides into. when the oil is cold and thick it wont squirt out of the way.

    If you get a chance to break down your motor, you can drill a small passage from the back of the hole out to the side so the oil can escape.

    If you are careful you can do this also with motor intact by drilling a small hole sideways from outside and then plugging the hole but it is too fiddicult to explain here--will add another post later with details
     
  9. TOM B

    TOM B Formula 3

    Jul 24, 2003
    1,038
    Orange County, NY
    Full Name:
    Thomas Buckley
    Byron,
    I put in the 75W90 NS about a month and a half ago. Changed from Redline 75W90 . It's been 2600 miles and I haven't noticed any improvement in the 2nd gear situation. I'm just resigned to shifting 1st to 3rd for the first 5 miles or so. Actually, when the oil temp starts moving off the stop, it's OK.


    Tom
     
  10. pma1010

    pma1010 F1 Rookie

    Jul 21, 2002
    2,558
    Chicago
    Full Name:
    Philip
    I thought this was a design feature to limit treating the cars harshly when cold...
     
  11. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Aug 3, 2002
    6,061
    Southeast USA
    Full Name:
    Mike Charness
    I had the problem for 10 years in my 308QV, then switched to Redline 75w/90-NS and it went away COMPLETELY... but only for about 6 months and it came back, even though that was only about 1000 miles during that time.

    Yes, cold 2nd gear is a "Ferarri thing." In Brad Paisley's country music video, "Celebrity", William Shatner catches Brad driving his Ferrari 355, and as Brad walks away, he tells Shatner, "It sticks a little in 2nd gear". Shatner replies, "You got it into 2nd gear?!? How'd you do that?!?"

    It's an inside joke that only Ferrari folks would get, but it's hilarious.
     
  12. JSL

    JSL Formula 3

    Jan 5, 2002
    2,212
    California
    Full Name:
    J.S. Leonard
    You have a problem with your 328, try it in a 348. I don't even try to shift into second until the car has been driven at least ten minutes! Oh, the frustration to be in love with such a fickle beast.
     
  13. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Owner Consultant

    May 5, 2001
    6,967
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH!!

    I've been looking for years for a good enough description of the 2nd gear hydraulic lock problem to figure out where to drill the relief hole for several years. This gives me enough specifics so that I can do the fix next time I have my tranny open!!

    The FChat & FList archives do not have a good enough description for me to be certain that I could figure the fix out. This tells me exactly where to look.

    I know there was a good FORZA article describing the fix a few years back. Several members have promised to send me a copy when they came across the right issue, but so far no one has.

    Appreciatively,
    Verell
     
  14. rivee

    rivee F1 Rookie

    Jan 20, 2002
    3,725
    Nowhere important, USA
    Full Name:
    John
    I also had this problem until I switched gear oil and am now using synthetic oil.

    Makes all the difference in the world.

    No more shifting problems at ALL!
     
  15. JOEL D.

    JOEL D. Karting

    Nov 2, 2003
    222
    Boston, MA
    Full Name:
    Joel DeLuca
    And I thought I was obsessive...... its a Ferrari, its Italian and like my wife, stubborn!!!! Get over it, we all lived without second gear for the last fifty years, why change tradition? They all do it, and I know of at least two guys who tried all these "fixes" and it still wont shift when cold, so what?

    Take it from one, Italian products are quirky, its engineered into them. Ever use the old italian pay phones with the slotted tokens? I have a Bezzerra expresso machine, a commercial model at that. No matter what is wrong with it, it is always the same fix......shut it off for ten minutes, turn it back on and its fine....thats italian!!!!!
     
  16. bobwass

    bobwass Karting

    Nov 26, 2003
    129
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Bob Wass
    aha! i knew there was a REASON for this!
     
  17. jimpo1

    jimpo1 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jul 30, 2001
    21,834
    Dallas, TX
    Full Name:
    Jim E
    I have always shifted the car from 1st to 3rd when it's cold. The dealer told me to do it the day I bought it, and I always have. I've never questioned WHY I must do it, but now I don't even think about it. After a few minutes, I glance at the oil gauge, see it's warm, and start using 2nd.
     
  18. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 29, 2001
    16,704
    USA
    Full Name:
    Hugh G. Rection
    I've seen the article some time ago, and have inquired about the veracity of it to a couple F-car mechanics, and they have said this "modification" will do nothing to correct the "cold 2nd gear syndrome". Would be curious to hear others thoughts on this, once we can find the article.... :)
     
  19. AJS328

    AJS328 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Apr 23, 2003
    7,519
    New Jersey
    Full Name:
    Augustine Staino
    Same here. It's just routine now. :)
     
  20. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 4, 2001
    28,843
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    I made the Redline swap about 6000 miles ago and have been very happy. The second gear problem went completely away and so far has stayed away. Another thing the syn oil did was get rid of my fast shift crunching. Just every once in a while - not every time - I would get a slight crunch when really rushing into 3rd on the track. It was as if I was quicker the the syncros. With the Redline that problem is gone too.

    The article describing the transmission drilling thing was actually in a Prancing Horse issue, not a Forza. I just threw away a photocopy this week that I used to keep at the office to fax around. I can copy it again and fax it out to anyone who wants it. Just email me your fax # and I'll be happy to send it out again.
     
  21. bobwass

    bobwass Karting

    Nov 26, 2003
    129
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Bob Wass
    did you use the reline 75w90ns or the mtl - manual trans lube - curious.
     
  22. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 4, 2001
    28,843
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    I first put in the mtl. After reading posts here about the NS I drained it and put it in which brings up another question; doesn't "ns" mean non-slip and, if so, doesn't my 84 308 have a limited-slip which would imply to a shade tree mechanic like myself that it needs to have some type of "slip" fluid.

    What gives?
     
  23. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
    Owner Consultant

    May 5, 2001
    6,967
    Groton, MA
    Full Name:
    Verell Boaen
    Search the old ferrarichat.com archives. Back in the spring/summer we spent a lot of time on tranny oils.

    Bottom line is that the newest LSD rated lubricants have too much slip for the early LSDs. Red-Line's recommendation was to use their non-LSD oil and if the LSD chatters on curves, then add small amounts of LSD additive until the chatter stops.
     
  24. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 4, 2001
    28,843
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    Good. Sounds like it won't harm anything as long as the chatter stays away. I haven't heard any so I guess I am in good shape to leave it alone.
     
  25. BWS550

    BWS550 Wants to be a mod

    Apr 1, 2002
    8,933
    NEW JERSEY
    Full Name:
    BRUCE WELLINGTON
    MAN. WAY TO MUCH GARBLY GOOK...THE TRS ARE THE WORST FROM 1ST TO 2ND. LET IT WARM UP FOR 5 MIN OR SO..SHOULD BE NO PROBLEM.................................
     

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