No power to the L/H bank fuel pump | FerrariChat

No power to the L/H bank fuel pump

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Talkwrench, Nov 17, 2010.

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  1. Talkwrench

    Talkwrench Rookie

    Nov 16, 2010
    15
    West Yorkshire UK
    Full Name:
    Michael Millar
    I have a problem with a 1990 Testarossa. The fuel pump feeding the left hand bank has no power to it. I've done all the usual checks around the fusebox and there's power coming from there. Fuses and relays are ok and connections are not burnt. There is power out. There appears to be a break in the wire from the fuse box bottom connector to the pump itself. Any ideas where the break is likely to be? Is there a connection somewhere that may have worked loose?
    Thanks in anticipation!
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,621
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #2 Steve Magnusson, Nov 17, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2010
    There's no intermediate connector shown in the TR wiring diagram between the fuse-relay panel y connector and the fuel pumps. Have you verified that there is +12V present at both female connectors/wires exiting the y connector and going to the fuel pumps when the engine is running or the starter motor is cranking (or if you done the other steps to manually close the tachometric relay)? There can be confusion regarding what the "RH" and "LH" labels at the relays mean and which fuel pump they actually operate.
     
  3. Talkwrench

    Talkwrench Rookie

    Nov 16, 2010
    15
    West Yorkshire UK
    Full Name:
    Michael Millar
    Hi Steve
    Thanks for the reply. Yes, checked the output at both pump feeds from the fusebox and all is present and correct. If I run a wire from the box output direct to the pump, it runs as it should. A bit of a mystery! It would appear that I just have to run a new feed from the box to the pump.
    Just to add to the confusion, it would appear that I also now have a cold start problem.
    All fine when fully warmed up but very reluctant to start when cold.
    I'm guessing the brown sensor but havent yet checked the resistance. Anyone know the correct fuel pressures off hand? I'd like to check that these are ok.
    Thanks again!
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,621
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    What TR engine family -- F113A, F113A040, F113B, something else?

    Give some background please -- i.e., poor cold starting is a new problem that started suddenly when everything was fine before, or it's always had the problem and every adjustment screw has been fiddled with in an effort to improve it but no joy, or ?
     
  5. Talkwrench

    Talkwrench Rookie

    Nov 16, 2010
    15
    West Yorkshire UK
    Full Name:
    Michael Millar
    The car is a 1990 Euro spec.
    Not sure of the engine family. No cats. Its a new acqusition for a friend of mine and it started well enough when we initially saw it (a week ago), even when cold, though the performance was very flat. This was clearly because of only running on 6 cylinders.
    There is a good spark on both banks and all 12 are now firing with the pump wired externally, though the left bank (7-12) seems to be a bit weaker, somehow. Its taking a longer time for the exhausts to get properly too hot to touch, whereas the right bank is heating up quickly. This is the bank (7-12) that also has the fuel pump problem.
    When starting cold, it is very reluctant to catch at all. When it does eventually catch, any throttle immediately kills it and it will only catch on no throttle. During warm up, it eventually starts to accept throttle but pops and bangs a bit. When fully warm, it responds ok to throttle with perhaps a hint of hesitation. I'm guessing there should be none.
    On reading other posts, sounds like it could be tachometric relay perhaps?
    Cars had new plugs, leads, rotor arms (they were all a bit flakey).
    Compression is 160psi+ on every cylinder. The service history shows that it had the fuel metering heads cleaned and recalibrated about a year ago when it had an engine out cam belt service.
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,621
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    #6 Steve Magnusson, Nov 17, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2010
    The engine family marking is shown on the top of the block above cyl #6. This example shows the F113A040 marking for a US version TR. From your verbal description (late euro, no cats), that TR should have an F113B engine (KE-Jet without Lambda), but please confirm/deny just to be clear (it might be shown as F113B or F113B000).
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    Maybe, but it wouldn't be my first suspect for poor continuous running. The tachometric relay's only function is to close the fuel pump relays so, if the fuel pumps are running, it is probably OK. The regulated supply pressure spec is 5.4 +/- 0.15 bar (but when I borrowed a friend's identical pressure gauge, I noted that it read 0.15 bar different than mine when measuring the same thing so the accuracy of these gauges isn't the greatest). If the regulated fuel pressure comes up quickly during starter motor cranking, and stays up during engine running, that's a good sign for the tachometric relay. (Measure the regulated supply pressure either where the cold start injector line attaches to the fuel distributor or at the test port on that same branch at the top level of the fuel distributor.)

    Certainly make sure that you've got good spark and good fuel presssure on both banks, but if those are OK, the next thing I would confirm/deny is if the protection relay is supplying +12V to run the "E" part of the KE-Jet system. Almost unfortunately, if the protection relay fails, warm-running can be made to be fairly decent by tweaking the mixture screw to add richness (i.e., the system runs as a K-Jet without Lambda), but cold-running and cold-starting will be poor. This jpeg describes how to check if the protection relay is supplying +12V or not:
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  7. Talkwrench

    Talkwrench Rookie

    Nov 16, 2010
    15
    West Yorkshire UK
    Full Name:
    Michael Millar
    Well, its an F113B engine, as suspected.
    And, there is no power at the red wire when cranking. So, the diagnosis of a faulty protection relay may well have been spot on. Any other checks to confirm this? I'm about to delve into the front to check out the relay.
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,621
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    #8 Steve Magnusson, Nov 18, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2010
    No, the protection relay is located in the black triangular box mounted over the right rear wheel well with the two circular connectors:

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    There are many reasons other than just a "bad" protection relay for this fault so MEASURE things to find out why before just buying a new protection relay. Post #9 in this thread describes how the TR/328 protection relay should work:

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229660

    If the mixture screws have been mucked with after the +12V power was lost from the protection relay (when the EHA currents are always 0 mA), they will need to be retweaked after the +12V power to the injection system is restored (and the EHA currents are restored to ~10 mA average at sea level).
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,621
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    Here's the TR protection relay information condensed into a jpeg (so it will be less work for me in the future when this subject comes up again -- and it will! ;)):

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    PS If the 10A fuse is blown and keeps blowing, measure the DC (should be 13~15 V DC) and AC (should be less than ~0.1 V AC) voltage between the battery terminals when the engine is running at ~2K RPM. If the alternator has gone haywire and is putting out a big voltage, the fuse should blow as this what the protection relay is intended to do -- "protect" the voltage-sensitve ECUs from a wacky alternator.
     
  10. Talkwrench

    Talkwrench Rookie

    Nov 16, 2010
    15
    West Yorkshire UK
    Full Name:
    Michael Millar
    Apologies... I'm muddling my front and my back ... always dangerous!
    Checked out the protection relay in its magical box and found a fault with the wiring inside the box. All repaired and the engine fired up immediately and runs smoothly.
    I think I'm nearer solving the pump wiring too. Behind the fuse box, one of the pump feeds (the faulty one) disappears into a plastic black box and reappears again. Definitely a lot of non-Ferrari splicing been going on and I'm guessing this is where the problem lies. It may be part of an alarm system. Not sure yet!
    Fuel pressures are both identical so no pump problems evident, though one bank still seems a little weak.
     
  11. Talkwrench

    Talkwrench Rookie

    Nov 16, 2010
    15
    West Yorkshire UK
    Full Name:
    Michael Millar
    Yep.. now Ive unearthed it the box is marked with an alarm sticker. I'm guessing its one of those darned Valet mode units to reduce the power by cutting out one bank. Well, its faulty!
     
  12. Talkwrench

    Talkwrench Rookie

    Nov 16, 2010
    15
    West Yorkshire UK
    Full Name:
    Michael Millar
    Missed out the faulty alarm module and now have two pumps working as they should! We also have a car that starts on the button and runs very nicely. I think that the weak bank is in need of an 'Italian Service' - probably after running for so long as an air compressor! It seems to be getting stronger all the time.
    I must thank Steve for your absolutely invaluable advice. Your posts are real 200% posts - you answer the query in full and give every bit of surrounding advice unprompted. Without your info on the protection relay, I'd have been on a wild goose chase all over the place. Even though the relay wasn't faulty, you pointed me in the right direction. Thanks again. Your knowledge is quite remarkable.
     
  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,621
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Glad to hear that you've made progress, but can you please explain this "fault" you found inside the black box a little more please? Knowing what has gone wrong for others can help me in evaluating other's problems/symptoms:

     
  14. Testarossa1

    Testarossa1 Karting

    Jun 15, 2007
    229
    UK
    Full Name:
    Clive

    Steve- you are a legend
     
  15. Talkwrench

    Talkwrench Rookie

    Nov 16, 2010
    15
    West Yorkshire UK
    Full Name:
    Michael Millar
    Hi Steve

    The fault was with the red wire that goes to terminal 87 of the protection relay. It was kinked over just before the crimped terminal at the relay and had broken internally.
    I just cut the wire further down and fitted a new terminal. All the other wires were absolutely fine.

    Another area where the connections were not as good as they could have been (showing a slight resistance) was where the round multi-connectors actually connect to the box. A good clean with contact cleaner and a coating of contact gel and all was measuring A1.
     

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