No-start/"vapor lock" condition | FerrariChat

No-start/"vapor lock" condition

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by ///Mink, Jan 10, 2015.

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  1. ///Mink

    ///Mink Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2006
    820
    Fair Oaks, CA
    Full Name:
    Tom Mink
    I had a lousy experience with my 550 today and wonder if anyone can enlighten me. I went for a drive this morning with a group of friends. About an hour into the drive, we stop for a 20 minute break. After the break, the 550 will not start. It will crank over just fine and give just a slight hiccup when the starter first engages, but that's it. It just cranks and cranks without starting. It reminded me of vapor lock on carbureted cars.

    I go inside, call AAA and arrange for a tow. I go back out to the car about 15 minutes later and decide to try once more. On the 2nd try it eventually sputters into life. I drove it 60 miles home and it ran flawlessly. It restarted without issue at home (immediately after stopping and 20 minutes after). I have not pulled the codes, but no CEL was set.

    Ambient temp was in the mid-50s. Car was running nice and cool and gave no warning of any issue. Gas tank was 3/4 full. Fuel pumps were both replaced in the last 5K miles. Major service (including fuel filter) was done less than 1000 miles ago. I feel like I can't trust this thing.
     
  2. PRS Guitarist

    PRS Guitarist Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2013
    312
    Maryland
    Full Name:
    Bob
    Bad gas? water in the line or tank may cause this. Try running Stabil with your fuel and see if the problem returns. Just a guess but worth a try.
     
  3. ferraridriver

    ferraridriver F1 Rookie

    Aug 8, 2002
    4,151
    Bay Area Calif.
    Full Name:
    Dave
    Tom, I have no ideas about your problem but sometimes these cars just stop to be admired for awhile then proceed along going about their business. :)

    One thing it is not is vapor lock. the 550s have a fuel return system, no possibility of vapor locking
     
  4. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
    BANNED

    Mine began doing that just before I pulled it down for its major, and I suspect it was the check valve in the fuel pump not holding pressure. I put a fuel pressure gauge on each rail, and one wouldn't hold pressure for more than 5-10 seconds.

    When you turn the key on the first time after shutting the engine down, the ECU's will run the fuel pumps for a couple of seconds to "purge" the system and ensure there's pressure at the injectors for a good start. This is a one shot deal, however; if you turn the key off before starting, then turn it back on, the pumps won't run again.

    I'd check the fuel pressure at the rail if I were you. The fitting at the rail is a -4 AN and it has a Schrader valve in it, so you should be able to spin the outer cap off without leaking fuel, however I'd still be careful and take the cap off and put the pressure gauge on without the engine running, and with plenty of rags handy, in case the Schrader isn't holding......

    FWIW, the combination fuel pressure/compression test kits usually have the right adapters for the fittings on the rails.
     
  5. ///Mink

    ///Mink Formula Junior
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    Sep 5, 2006
    820
    Fair Oaks, CA
    Full Name:
    Tom Mink
    Interesting. One thing I didn't mention was that right before it finally did start, I opened the trunk and banged my hand against the front trunk wall to see if one of the pumps were "stuck" or something. I doubt it had anything to do with it, but thought I'd mention it.

    The only other thing I didn't mention was that when I parked, it was on a slight incline. It was no more than a suburban driveway so probably not worth mentioning. In a fit of desperation, I rolled the car onto flat ground to see if that would help and it didn't.

    I will get myself a fuel pressure gauge and see what happens to the pressure just after shutdown. Any brand/model suggestions?
     
  6. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,969
    socal
    Tom,

    Also with heat you always have to suspect electrical connections that expand and contract with heat. Check obvious connections like the ground wires on the top rear of the valve covers and the circular connectors that feed the fuel injection harness. While conventional wisdom is does it lack spark or fuel sometimes it is not that easy. When this happens again spray some starter fluid in the intake and see if the car fires. If it starts on first glance that would indicate a fuel problem but it could also mean an inefficient spark. You are still going to want to put a gauge on the rail looking at idle and psi at rpm. There are some specs in the WSM. Even bad injector spray patterns or leaky injectors can make this worse.
     
  7. ///Mink

    ///Mink Formula Junior
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    Sep 5, 2006
    820
    Fair Oaks, CA
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    Tom Mink
    I got around to taking some fuel pressure readings today but it didn't seem to shed any light on anything. Here are the numbers, L/R:

    Key on, engine off: 50psi/45psi

    Idle: 50 psi/50 psi

    Immediately after shutdown: 48psi/47psi

    20 min after: 49psi/56psi

    30 min after: 50psi/56psi

    So do these number tell you guys anything? Everything seems pretty equal side-to-side except that the right side pressure rose more after shutdown. Neither side lost pressure after shutdown.
     
  8. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
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    Tom, it appears the check valves in your new pumps are holding, so fuel pressure apparently isn't the issue.

    You mentioned both fuel pumps were replaced in the last 5000 miles; why was this?
     
  9. Jay Kay

    Jay Kay Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    34
    South Africa
    Full Name:
    Clynton
    I have had the same problem a number of times. It seems to happen when ambient temps are hot. I have found a fix that works for me Press gas pedal all the way down, and crank until it starts. It sometimes take around 5 seconds or so, but it always starts. Problem goes away for months at a time and then reminds me occasionally that the car is Italian...
     
  10. ///Mink

    ///Mink Formula Junior
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    Sep 5, 2006
    820
    Fair Oaks, CA
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    Tom Mink
    Typical degradation of the rubber. It happened when the previous owner had it. Required a full cleanout of the fuel system, including the injectors.

    Interesting, I will keep that in mind. Although when it happened to me, it was only in the mid-50s and the car was running very cool.
     
  11. Jay Kay

    Jay Kay Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    34
    South Africa
    Full Name:
    Clynton
    I think it might have something to do with the heat soak after the car is shut down. Mine also runs cool, but the problem seems to happen after stopping and parking for a while. Sometimes, when I drive the car hard, and then stop for gas, I have the problem once filled up. Once started, all seems to run ok. :)
     
  12. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,162
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    Try pulling the Motronic ECUs and make sure you do not have corrosion or a bent pin at the connectors.
     
  13. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
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    Thanks, that's why I asked, as the next question/suggestion was whether you'd experienced that problem and if the fuel system had been thoroughly flushed out afterward, including a deep cleaning of the injectors. So are you fairly confident all that's been done and you don't have any stray bits still in there that could be causing this intermittent starting issue?

    It would be good to get codes from the ECU's; those would at least give you some hints on where to start looking. It may be that one or the other crank sensor is failing intermittently, or as Taz said, perhaps there's something dodgy in one or the other ECU.

    Had you washed the car just prior to taking it out, or done any other maintenance work recently, ie within the last week or so?
     
  14. ///Mink

    ///Mink Formula Junior
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    Sep 5, 2006
    820
    Fair Oaks, CA
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    Tom Mink
    I talked to the guy who did the work for the PO but it's hard to gauge how far he went in the clean up. I know he cleaned the injector screens, flushed the lines and replaced the filters. I will say that this is the first time in the 2 years I've had it that it's acted like that.

    I just checked - there were no codes stored at all. So whatever happened, the ECUs didn't seem to know about it.

    No work other than swapping out the wheels. I did wash it 4 days before.
     
  15. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
    BANNED

    "Maybe" the tank still had some rubber bits in it, but those should have been trapped by the new fuel filters.

    The day it wouldn't restart, was that the first time you'd driven it since washing it? If so, you might want to look at the ECU in the passenger foot well and see if there's any moisture or corrosion in the connector, as Taz suggested. That passenger side ECU apparently is fairly exposed due to bad weather stripping, as FBB discovered awhile back and enlightened us all.

    If you find any on the right side, it might be interesting to check the left one too.
     

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