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Normally aspirated, or artificial?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by TimF40, Jan 28, 2004.

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Normally aspirated, or artificial?

  1. Normally aspirated?

  2. Artificially aspirated?

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  1. TimF40

    TimF40 Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Many recent threads have dealt with the 360's lack of horsepower competitiveness with the Ford GT, baby Lambo, even the 911TT.

    One answer is to stay normally aspirated and increase the engine size, which seems to be the direction of the 360 follow-on.

    Another answer is to succumb to artificial aspirated means (turbo or supercharger) while keeping the small engine size. Some people think this is cheating (for some reason), and that it doesn't really show off the engine engineering of a brand.

    What do you think Ferrari ought to do: stay normally aspirated or succumb?
     
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  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Ignore the horsepower race, as somebody always will produce a faster car!

    Pete
     
  4. jeffdavison

    jeffdavison F1 Rookie
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    Big Bad Wolf says.........


    I'll Huff and Puff and Blow your house down.......

    I agree with him


    JD
     
  5. mbarr

    mbarr Karting

    Jan 11, 2004
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    Turbo, reliable and fun/easy to squeeze out more hp. I dont hear people with F40 complaining.
     
  6. aawil

    aawil Formula 3

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    I prefer naturally aspirated but I'm not a fan of raising the displacement either.I think it hurts that exotic sound of the engine when they raise it.I good example is the 360 and enzo.Neither's engine IMO sound as good as their predecessor the 355 and F50.
     
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  8. JaguarXJ6

    JaguarXJ6 F1 Veteran

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    You can keep your "ram air" effect (re: recent Stradale threads).

    I will take large displacement, high rev, force fed engines over screaming low torque high stress (break frequently) engines any day of the week.

    What does the competition dominating the performance arena use? Force fed. Which manufacturers build more reliable cars with less maintenance? The competition. From small import sub 2 litre engines all the way to top fuel dragsters, guess what they use?

    The F40 would LOSE cache if it was naturally aspirated, in my opinion. mbarr is right on the money with the F40 comment.

    Sunny

    Edit: Supercharging is the way to go, for me anyway. I can't stand peaky turbos.
     
  9. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    This might sound strange coming from me (see profile), but I prefer naturally aspirated hp. In general, there is just no replacement for displacement. BUT, increasing displacement is not always a practical solution. The hp/lb, hp/$, and hp/size of a boosted engine is much better than a naturally aspirated engine....the torque cuve is flatter with natural aspiration though which is a very nice feature. A blower or turbo makes a great up grade when you want more power, but I don't think they should come that way...what would I do with my time if they did????
     
  10. TimF40

    TimF40 Formula 3

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    Are there turbo kits for the 360? Lower the compression a little and slap on a turbo. I wonder what the hp would be? I also wonder how it would compete with the 360 follow-on engine. Seems like the 3.6L plus turbo would be lighter than the 4.x engine.
     
  11. Willis360

    Willis360 F1 Rookie

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    Tim,

    Check out the newest issue of Forza. The cover car, Imola Racing's 360 makes normally aspirated 480HP.
     
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  13. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
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    Yep... and that's being discussed in this thread.

    Here, I'd like to focus on forced induction... specifically, what are people's thoughts on a moderate level supercharger on a 360??

    How much boost could you get with minimal effects on reliability?

    What other adjustments would be needed to the engine?

    As hot as the engine bay gets, will there be a heat issue with a supercharger in there?

    How does a supercharger affect drivability and responsiveness?

    What are the drawbacks of supercharging in the case of a car like the 360?? I assume Ferrari will not warrant it.


    (Let's see... CS with Imola Racing's boosts to 480hp plus a supercharger taking it into the 500's... that could be sweet.)
     
  14. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I voted for boost. I like blowers better than turbos. I just don't like the heat the turbos put out.

    Yes Imola Racing did improve on an already highly tuned engine. But there is another company that did it the way I would. Novitec Rosso, their webstie is http://www.novitecrosso.com . They twin supercharged the 360, using small centrifical blowers. Here are the numbers their mods yeilded: 606hp @ 8,600rpm, 454 lb/ft of torque, 0 - 60mph in 3.6 seconds, 0 - 100mph in 8.4 seconds, 1/4 mile in 11.6 seconds at 124mph, top speed 213mph.

    If the engine is gonna stay naturally aspirated, it must spin faster. A company name Coates has a very ingenious valve system. Their website is http://www.coatesengine.com . They make a spherical rotory valve that is capable of spinning over 14,000rpm. It also lets the engine get more air. They took a 5.0L engine out of a Lincoln, that stock put out 260hp, and 249lb/ft of torque at 5,500rpm. With their valve system the engines out put jumped to 475hp, and 454lb/ft of torque at the same engine speed with out any internal modifications. The stock valves flowed 180cfm using 28in of H2O, the Coates valves flowed 319cfm at the same pressure. Now imagine if they spun that thing up to the valves capable speed of 14,000rpm.

    What ever the case the engine needs to get more air. Can you imagine a combination of both a blower and the Coates valves. Insane!
     
  15. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I can give you some so of the answers based on my 308 experience. With a positive displacement blower (roots or screw) drivablility is pretty much unchanged because boost the boost curve is pretty flat. The roots blower I tried gave me about 7 psi off idle and 10 psi by 5000. The screw type I'm using now is giving me about 15 off idle and 22 by 5000. At 22 psi the engine is at 600hp +/- on pump gas. I just got it running in the fall and haven't put it on a dyno yet to confirm the numbers, but with the car rolling along at any rpm in 2nd gear, pushing the throttle to the floor smokes the tires...and I'm running 285s. With the old system at 10 psi, the car dynoed 304 rwhp, stock it was 195. Superchargers have little effect on underhood temperature because you are no adding more pipe or surface area to the exhaust. A 360 would require a lower CR to add boost effectively. With the compression at 9:1, you could add 5-10 psi with no intercooler and see a hp gain of 25%-50% without any problems If you add and intercooler, 10-30 psi is possible (you need stiffer valve springs over about 15), you could probably hit 800 hp. The only driveline problem I've had is the clutch, a had to switch to a carbon-carbon unit. The blower will add 30-40 lbs to the car and you'll need an aftermarket ECU (you can piggyback it if you need to keep the stock one for other functions)
     
  16. Wildwarrior

    Wildwarrior Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2003
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    Boost is the key to excessive HP ,I prefer super chargers over turbos.Certainly Ferrari could optomize cam lift and duration per flow off heads,as they do on their all out race motors,however then she would have all high rpm power and she would no longer be street friendly.My 500 ci race car engines in my Pro -Mod race car produce well over 2000hp.The blowers basicly double the power, easy hp. However It is expensive,even on a mild street user set up, you need a much stronger short block,crank,rods ect.It is a tough call,in order for Ferrari to keep up the power wars,they will need more cubes or a bit of boost.I know for me it isn't important to have over 500 hp on the street, my 512TR is a blast as she sits ,I rarely see 5th gear.My 2 cents!
     
  17. Victory

    Victory Formula Junior

    Jan 28, 2004
    410
    Ferrari together with BMW are the leaders in naturally aspirated engines. They will go either the turbo route or the supercharger route. Those are "quick fix" ways of boosting power. And both Porsche and Audi chose to go via turbos while Mercedes prefer superchargers.

    One of the things that excite us about Ferrari is the engine sound or exhaust note. Naturally aspirated engines gives that sound. Turbos can't make exciting exhaust notes. But supercharged engines can, though. Listen to the SL55 AMG, you'll be impressed.

    Through modern technology and R&D Ferrari is able to make big capacity engines small. Check out the 6.0 litre Enzo engine and you'll be impressed. So this will be the route that Ferrari will take, power through increase in capacity and advanced technology.
     
  18. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    So, what are the negatives of putting a supercharger on a 360??

    1) An extra 40 lbs.
    2) Some loss of the intake sound.
    3) Need for some stronger engine components as HP rises... Ferrari engineered it for 400+, not 600hp.
    4) ??? what else ???
     
  19. JaguarXJ6

    JaguarXJ6 F1 Veteran

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    4.2L V8, supercharged, big bore exhaust. http://www.paramount-performance.com/real/full-grandprix-exhaust-system.wav Oh, and its a Jag too.

    I hope Ferrari comes out with a turbo mid-engine again! Woot!

    Sunny
     
  20. TimF40

    TimF40 Formula 3

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    Great engine resource! I didn't know these guys existed. The web site didn't have prices. Anyone have any idea as to ballpark cost on one of their options?

    I also wonder what the drive train reliability would be like after installing one of these kits... e.g., Is it measured in "hours" rather than years!
     
  21. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
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    Look, i'm not an engineer, but i can tell you based on my experience that the turbo set-up in my GT-2, which, according to most porsche people, has very little turbo lag compared to older turbos, is still noticeably binary. That is so, even with an aftermarket exhaust and racing cats. There is no question that the car puts out huge power for its displacement, but there is such a noticeable difference in the power /acceleration curve once the turbos kick in that its like driving two different cars. Now, maybe there are even better turbo kits available aftermarket, but i trust that porsche knows a little bit about this kind of engineering, and would find it suprising that they would deliberately want this kind of difference to exhibit itself.

    My point is simply that if this is the state of the art in production turbo cars, its still not linear enough for me; the car can become a handful real fast. Now maybe you want that; but i honestly like the predictability of more linear power delivery. There is a huge rush when the fokker kicks in, but suddenly, all the dynamics of the car are on a different level. Maybe if you are able to drive it for considerable distances with the boost on continually, it would be a different experience, but the sort of canyon carving that i like means you are on and off boost constantly, and baby, it ain't linear. Its more like having something that goes from underpowered to afterburner on a switch; there is very little subtlety to it (yeah, you can modulate the degree of boost, but when it goes on at all, its like you changed engine parameters). So, if i had to vote, it would be for more power, more torque, but do it without the turbo's.

    Hard engineering support or refutation of any of the foregoing is welcomed.
     
  22. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Some people hate it, some don't really notice it. A supercharger doesn't have it :)
     
  23. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I guess the negatives are

    1.No more warranty. I have to believe your dealer will laugh if you want them to warrenty any engine/driveline repairs after they see the blower.

    2.Cost. . I’d guess you’re looking at $15k-$25k to do the job.. Also you will need to drop the compression ratio, so the engine needs to come apart. May (probably) need a better clutchIt would be easier on a 6spd car than an F1, but either is possible. There is no kit to supercharger any ferrari that I know of, so you need to find someone to design and custom make a custom system… and make it look like it belongs on a ferrari. There aren’t many places that could do the job.

    3.Service. Anytime you modify any car, the problem becomes where do you get it serviced. If you can do the work yourself, it doesn’t matter, but most shops go into meltdown when something non-stock rolls in. So you need to either stay on very good terms with the shop that installs it, or know and understand what they did so you can answer questions at service time.

    …it would be very fast though. I love mine. Here is a link to an mepg of it on the dyno, a different sound, but I like it.

    http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markeberhardt/MarkFerrari.mpg
     
  24. mbarr

    mbarr Karting

    Jan 11, 2004
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  25. bumboola

    bumboola Formula Junior

    Mar 7, 2003
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    I would prefer another 1000 rpm at the top end of a 360 than 50 more horsepower. I would love to have both, but given the choice, that is what I would take. I love a "peaky" type horsepower band, a la an inline 4 small displacement superbike motor and naturally aspirated

    Also, the ONLY competition for the 360, sales-wise, is the Gallardo. Ferrari doesn't "need" to increase horepower to compete with all the other brands. Look, I would love to have a 500 hp Stradale but the sad fact is that most people that can afford these cars could care less if it has 400 hp or 500 hp. They want an Italian exotic for it's looks or to be seen in, not to run down Ford GTs or Vipers on the highway. The demand for 360s is not affected by how much horsepower it has. The guys that can't afford these cars seem to be the most concerned about the need to compete in the "horsepower war."
     
  26. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I have to disagree bumboola. I have one of these cars and I would like it to be able to hunt down and kill a Viper, Ford GT40, or 996TT. It's not cool when there are posts of soccer moms smashing on Ferrari's in blown, four door, grocerie getters, ala the S55/E55 AMG, as the kids are waving in the back window. That is just plain not cool. Yes I did get my Ferrari because of it's looks, but also for the performance. Yet by todays standards it just doesn't stack up. The looks are still there and always will be, but the performance needs to be there also.
     
  27. bumboola

    bumboola Formula Junior

    Mar 7, 2003
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    Ernie, I said I would love 500 hp. Nobody in the Detroit area has driven their 355/360s as hard as I have - just ask my dealer! But MOST buyers just don't care. Also, most of those brand X vs Ferrari posts are pure bull****. An 03-04 E55 WILL take a 360, but I suspect that 99% of these stop light drags never even occurred. Car forums are notorious for bull****ters.
     
  28. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Bumbool the stories are true. The one I refered to, about the kids in the back window of a S55, was posted right here by a 355 owner. One of the biggest reasons I want more power is becasue of those soccer moms in the hi/hp kiddie transporters. I HATE IT when you coming up on one of them driving slow in your lane. So you change lanes to go around her. Are just about ready to change lanes in front of her and continue on your merry way. Only to have the broad see you, when you are about a half car length ahead of her, then speed up to block you. It is even worse when they do that and then stay even with the car in front of you just to piss you off. It would be nice to be able to out blast them and avoid all the head ache. The other pains in the butt are these hopped up saki burners that pester you, epesically the WRX's or EVO's. And, if you think your gonna loose one of them in the canyons, forget it, they will loose you. Why? Cause they are boosted!! If Ferrari is gonna keep the engine displacement small, they need to be boosted to make more power.
     

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