Now I am sure we are at the peak of a bubble!

The Enzo is a better example of the instant classic, and this trend seems to have started in the last decade.

But I agree with you that the ascent in values in general has been too much too fast, and I am well-known for saying this in recent times.

 

Apparently so.
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People thinking about getting this 4.0 most likely already own a CGT and the $600k will be peanuts. I still think it is ridiculous money for such a used car without any history, not that different than the other GT3's. Plus at this price, it will most likely have to be locked and never used.

With that said, you can find bargain 4.0 for less than $400k if you dont need the baby diaper color.

 

More specifically, you can get one for $339,000: Used 2011 PORSCHE 911 GT3 RS 4.0 For Sale | Freeport NY

The thread's topic asks $560,000-ish, but that's just the ask. Either way, that's a huge discrepancy.

 

That seems more "reasonable," I suppose. I think some CGTs can be had for $400k or slightly yes, correct? Porsche of Houston has a nice white CGT up for sale, but with 17k miles, I'm not sure if it's at $400k given that or asking more since it's white.

The muscle car analogy is a good one regarding the mass produced 997 and then these limited 4.0s. I don't understand how a limited version of a muscle car gets so much more than the base model just like the 4.0. I don't disagree with it asking more money, but that many fold is a lot...some people get it and I guess I'm the group that doesn't.

 

When one considers the maintenance costs of a CGT over any GT3 RS, I would prefer any 911 over a CGT. Similar outrageous service costs on Ferraris is what caused me to go back to Porsche after 6 different Ferraris over 25 years. My Turbo-S is less expensive to own that the bottom of the line Ferrari.

 

CGTs have been going up. So less than $400k would be a "high" mileage car.

 

I think people forget that cars like Lotus Exige S V6, Noble M600 and Caterham 7 exist. All with the same philosophy as the GT3. But they can't be bought in the US, maybe that's why NA is hanging on to the 997 4.0...

I think some people go overboard with the limited edition and collectible thing. If you really are that much of a fan for the 997 4.0 dynamics there are countless reputable tuners out there to take your 3.8 RS to the next level. It's the bragging rights that run the market, it seems. I'm as much of a RS 4.0 fan as the next guy but come on, unless you're obsessed with having something others don't and love bragging rights, there are plenty of 3.8s to drive and tune.

Honestly, I can understand OP's frustration, because it's one sexy and charismatic car that has been put further away from the reach of mortals, but it's not the end of the world.

Although, collecting and not driving a 4.0, and speculating on the values for a car like that is a real shame. Good for you if you got it, but for the love of cars please enjoy it as it was intended by the guys who made it...

 

I love the 4.0 RS but I don't think it's worth more than a CGT or is THAT much better than a .2 3.8RS.

For the same money, you can get these:

Used 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 [997] GT3 for sale in Hampshire | Pistonheads

Used 2003 Ferrari Challenge Stradale for sale in West Midlands | Pistonheads

And either:

Used 2008 Ferrari 430 Scuderia SCUDERIA for sale in Kent | Pistonheads

Or:

Used 2006 LAMBORGHINI Murcielago LP640 for sale in Derbyshire | Pistonheads

I know what I'd do...absolutely love the 4.0 RS but a CS, .1 GT3 RS and a manual LP640 will keep me a lot happier for the same amount of money.

 

for what 4.0s are trading for you could get a 997 RSR, the full on factory race car, which will have some sort of racing history and provenance....that will be a true collectible 30 years down the road. (The ex-Flying Lizard/Core Autosport RSR from ALMS sold for ~$375k earlier this year).

and before you say "but that's a race car, a 4.0 you can drive on the street...", if you pay $400k for any "collectible" car, you're not driving it on the street that much.

 

I'd daily drive a CGT given half the chance.

Personally I don't really see the point in buying a recent race car and then (presumably) only do track days with it...for the same amount of money one can buy a 458 GT3 and race that for a few more years.

 

you could vintage race it in HSR, etc including some cool enduro events (day into night at Sebring, etc), that would be pretty badass.

I've just lost almost all interest in sports cars for the road....crappy roads, crappy drivers, speed limits, it's just not fun any more.

 

I agree and that is one of the main reasons I do not buy into new sports cars, almost any of them can go twice as fast as the national speed limit easily and with no demands from the driver. I am either Bored or illegal while driving them.
That is the appeal of vintage sports cars for the road, slow car driven fast, is much more fun than driving a fast car slow.
Maybe a lot of others are sharing this same feeling and that is a reason for the run up in early cars.
What can you do with these new sports cars? twice a year track drive? Blvd. cruise? brag? polish it?
I think the bubble will pop on them as people realize that.

 

Two comments:

- The run-up has not been/is not exclusive to early cars. Contemporary Supercars have ascended similarly, and this thread itself highlights same. In the Ferrari Supercar world in which I operate, the run-up rate in some cases surpasses that of vintage cars.

- If the "bubble" pops and there is a correction, ALL cars including early cars will be affected too. This has always been the case, and the same market rules apply here.

Basically, buy what you like and make yourself happy.

Some people love the history, look & feel of old cars. Some people can't stand them, and as one famed collector once said: "I am not a caretaker of patina & cracked leather". Some people like both old & new, as I do, so I can be impartial here. Each to their own.

Lastly, it is a challenge finding good roads and staying within the speed limit whether you drive old cars or new cars. Yes a new car will get you in trouble quicker, but let's be realistic, by how much quicker? 3 seconds? Ive owned plenty of old cars, and the issues are basically the same. In fact, the experience is less enjoyable with old cars on public roads dealing with other motorists because there is always the fear of breaking down! That said, if you are really determined, wake up early, and there are still some wonderful country roads that can be enjoyed with peace of mid and almost no road-users in sight, even today. You just have to make more effort to enjoy them, and then its all the more satisfying.

 

Hopefully some cars/drivers of similar speed will be in there though.

Fair enough, suppose it really matters where you live, so I understand what you mean. Last year I was very close to buying a very sorted R33 GTR (600bhp, Time Attack prepared etc) but decided against it at the last minute because of several reasons: Roads here are ****, the drivers are even worse and if I have a problem I'd need to send the car to South Africa (and will wait endlessly on parts) and trust it with mechanics I don't know.

I've lusted after an R33 for years so it was a hard decision. I know people here with Ferrari's and such but they never drive them because the drivers here are so terrible (and after dark on any given day, almost certainly drunk). I'm now in the process of selling my business and move to Europe to start a new business. If all goes well I'll buy a toy next year .

 

+1, I'm with you entirely: older cars are much more rewarding to drive, since they require real skill to maximize their potential (which is still attainable on public roads); and they also provide a wonderful 'time-machine' experience where you get to ruminate on the engineering, design and material specs of another era. Given the chance between an Italia and a Mercer Raceabout or STuTz Bearcat for a drive through local country roads, I'd pick the latter two, hands down.

 

Nope.
2011 is still a new car and not a 'classic' and is going to run the deprecation cycle of all new cars as stated earlier by others.
New cars have way more "fluff" in the price than older cars and are susceptible to the next better new car from the Marque. So this 997 value will negatively be affected by the latest offering From Porsche but the other classic Porsche will not.
Lastly there is way more than a "few seconds" difference between driving a CGT or SWB 911.
You are right about buying what makes you happy, the problem is many car buyers chase false goals given to them by salesmen and end up with stuff they do not really like or use.

 

Anything is possible, but somehow I don't think the introduction of the next RS (991) will cause the outgoing RS (997)'s value to be negatively affected.

Going back to my earlier comment, as we have seen in the past, if the "bubble" pops and there is a correction, ALL cars including early cars will be negatively affected too, and that will include SWB 911s!

 

The CGT value is affected by the 918
959 value was hurt when Porsche released a 4-wheel drive turbo after it.
Both of those were 'instant Classics' in many peoples minds. I could go on but you get the idea.
People who buy new cars want the latest, greatest. Look to how often they change hands. Especially when the next one comes out.
Of course all cars will be affected if the bottom falls out, but I know that new car buyers take a hit before established cars and and it is generally a harder hit and a longer recovery.
I guess we just see it different. Just my view and experience.

 

Yes, the CGT's value has been affected with the advent of the 918 - positively! Part of the reason is because it is looked upon now as the last manual-gearbox Porsche Supercar, and part of the reason is the current overall upwards value ascent. I consult on those cars personally Cars | Joe Sackey Classics I can tell you that the reality is that the CGT's value has only increased in the past year.

Ditto the 959, and when the 993 Turbo (4-wheel drive) was released, its net effect on 959 values was nil, because the 959 was not USA-legal, and, the cars exist in two completely seperate markets!

Yes both were instant classics.

 

Lesson learned;

You cant fix stupid but apparently you can buy it.

 

Too late, it just sold for $38.1m all-in!

 

We are probably in a bubble but not at the peak. Barring an economic soft patch, hard to see what will move buyers to the sidelines.

I do find it interesting how memories can be short. Remember the trading prices for .1 RS's in 2008 vs. MSRP and then in 2011? Same for Challenge Stradales.

Neither has recovered to the prior highs.

 

Humans are funny animals. Anyone want a tulip bulb?