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O' Brethren of the Carb...

Discussion in '308/328' started by RJay, Jul 29, 2006.

  1. RJay

    RJay Formula Junior

    Jun 26, 2004
    261
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Bob
    Guys,

    I blew a cooling hose on my way to work a couple of weeks ago. I finally had time to find it. I have a 78' 308 GTS. The hose segment that blew was the lower one on top of the engine just behind the thermostat heading directly to the left (as you view into the rear engine compartment). There is a segment above it going to the "Cold Idle" Cam that is blocking any reasonable access. It is also down between the two right most Carbs. I can't even get my hand on it to feel the rupture. I pressurized the coolant overflow tank (alright, I blew into it - no comments, please). I can see coolant blowing from the segment I mentioned. Man, to replace all the "hoses" consists of, like 10 itty bitty hoses and double for clamps!


    Does anyone have any tricks for how to approach this without dismantling a whole buncha stuff? I will be replacing the three rubber segments that go all the way down to where the long tube heads off to the front of the car (and I shoulda done it last fall - Doh!).

    Rjay
     
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  3. DavidDriver

    DavidDriver F1 Rookie
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    May 9, 2006
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    Rjay,

    Having just disassembled the same thing on my car, albeit for different reasons and much more completely, I would suggest the following, to avoid screwing-up what adjustment you may have on your carbs, and disconnecting the linkage:

    1) Remove the air cleaner box
    2) Block-off the carburetor ventui's with masking tape or duct (messier) tape
    3) Remove the throttle cable and move it out of the way.
    4) Remove the vacuum hose from wichever carb has it attached.
    5) Disconnnect the rear fuel line(s) (I think there are two of them)
    6) Disconnect the choke cable. (I have a vague rememberance of that)
    7) Remove the intake manifold nuts.
    8) Remove the cold idle cam nuts
    9) Gently remove the entire intake unit

    That should give you access to the hose.

    Also, if yours is like mine (it may not be, as I have a GT4) then you may have a plastic bracket that holds the aluminum extension that passes next to the oil filter. On mine, it is attached to the oil filter mouting bracket, and I had to remove the oil filter bracket in order to remove the aluminum extension and bracket.

    DO NOT DO THIS, until somoene more qualified than I, has either recommended or verified that what I have done was "a" correct method, okay? I am an amature. But what is listed above, is what I did to remove that hose that extends from the back of the thermostat/pump to the aluminum extension.

    And there may be an easier way to do it.


    ***WARNING/DISCLAIMER: I am not a professional mechanic. I've provided what I did for informational purposes only. And although the process I outlined above, I did on my car last week, it may not be the correct, best or proferred method. So, do this at "your own risk". I assume no liabiliby for you trying to copy what I did. If you have any concern that you are not able to do it without damaging your vehilce, then take it to a qualified mechanic.

    Good luck!

    David.
     
  4. DavidDriver

    DavidDriver F1 Rookie
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    May 9, 2006
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    On 2nd thought (now that I've had an hour or two to sleep on it):

    Maybe it would be easier to simply remove the oil filter and reaching in that way, using a 1/4" ratchet to undo the hose clamps.

    I think I'd try that first.
     
  5. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    I could be wrong, need to go look, but I thought you would need to pull the water pump housing off to replace either of those two hoses. If you can snap, or cut the clamps, pull out the housing complete with the hoses, putting it back should be much easier. But I could be wrong
     
  6. bwassam

    bwassam Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2005
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    Robert Wassam
    If you end up pulling the water pump you may as well replace that to save your having to do it later. Also, if you see any other hoses that look worn or are soft, then now it the time to replace those as well.

    Bob Wassam
     
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  8. RJay

    RJay Formula Junior

    Jun 26, 2004
    261
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    Guys,

    Thanks for the advice. Paul, I believe you are right. I will have to pull the complete water pump assembly. I just can't see a way around this. She's up on blocks and I pulled the small cooling hose up front that "t"s off the main hose, in order to drain the system. I did this when I flushed the system last fall, and it worked well.

    While I had the right side wheel well open, I noticed gobs of grease on the speedo sender. I guess the U joint on the right drive wheel is leaking and throwing grease around. I can see a spider pattern of grease coming off this joint. It also hit the exhaust manifold. This would explain why my passenger side was smoking from time to time.

    Looks like I'm in for some downtime.

    -Rjay
     
  9. DavidDriver

    DavidDriver F1 Rookie
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    May 9, 2006
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    RJay,

    You're replacing all of the hoses on the passenger side? or on the driver's side?

    I was able to remove the brackets on mine using a 1/4" socket for the ones I could not access with a long handled screwdriver, thorugh the top and between the carbs. Although I might have been able to get them with a long handled socket. But I didn't try that. And since I was in the midst of an engine removal, that precipitated "my" particular mess, I didn't take a lot of time worrying about the pro's/con's of removing the carbs. Since I had to do that anyway.

    But it seems to me that you can gain plenty of access to the hose clamps by going through were the oil filter is. Unless your arms are too large. Mine are fairly thin, and they did get pretty bruised-up in the process.

    If you're replacing the hoses at the rear (driver's side) of the engine, then I would certainly do it this way and avoid the water-pump. Unless you plan to rebuild it anyway.

    Just my 2 cents....
     
  10. RJay

    RJay Formula Junior

    Jun 26, 2004
    261
    Colorado
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    Bob
    David,

    Thanks for your advice. The hose clamps on these two hoses have their nut portion facing straight up. I don't think I can even get a socket straight down from the top. I recently removed the oil filter flange as part of a rebuild of the oil pressure sender unit so I see how it will help with access. Right now, it seems that getting the water pump loose will allow access to the lower hose. I can't even see the nuts on the hose clamps (even with a mirror) for the lower hose. It is really snug right down on the intake manifold.

    -Rjay
     
  11. DavidDriver

    DavidDriver F1 Rookie
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    May 9, 2006
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    That sucks. I've been learning first hand about Ferrari tolerances.

    Everything is so tightly engineered, and it makes it difficult (at least timewise) to work on. I've never worked on a car where pulling studs was such a "given", before. LOL!!!

    That really sucks about the nuts. I had one that was really weirdly positioned. And it didn't have to be either. The mechanic to worked on it last, just did it that way. Makes you wonder why... More time = more money?

    Who knows?

    But I'll bet his own personal car doesn't look like that!
     
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  13. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    The hoses were probably put on long ago and most likely without the manifolds and carbs in the way. As rediculous as it seems, the hoses could very well be original to the car. Of the 2 308's I own, many hoses are original. Either people didnt have the cars serviced, or they paid for it and it wasnt done. The second car had brand spanking new carbs put on last December and the shop that did it didnt even replace any fuel hose, even used the same old rusty clamps.

    I believe you can remove the pump by removing only the rear cam belt cover. If you cant loosen the clamps with a long thin screwdriver, perhaps you can slip something like a hacksaw blade in and cut the clamps. But I believe the coolant pipes are thin aluminum so you would not want to pry hard on anything to do with them and add to your problems. Once you have it off, when you slip it back on you will be able to rotate the clamps the way YOU want, although you may want them staggered, so one tightens from the front side, and the other from the rear so they dont interfere with each other tightening them. I hope that made sense. I mean like the top hose has front facing clamps and or vice versa. If the pump isnt leaking and spins okay, and if its not real hard to pull it, you could get the car back together and drive it until you have a new pump in hand.
     
  14. RJay

    RJay Formula Junior

    Jun 26, 2004
    261
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    Bob
    #11 RJay, Aug 23, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    So.. after staring at the problem, I decided to just cut off the two hoses that come from the water pump. This enabled the main cooling pipe going to the left side to come free and the rest unraveled from there. I was able to finally get a screwdriver onto the clamps and get them off too. Thanks for the original advice...I really did have access...just a bit tight.

    Anyway, does anyone have a recommendation to remove the water deposits on the aluminum without damage? See the picture.

    -Rjay
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  15. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    Apr 1, 2004
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    i'm going to be the first to throw the old monkey wrench your way ;) if the coolant hoses are that old how about the rest of the bunch? i went thru and for about $200 replaced every single hose in the engine bay from fuel to coolant. it ofcourse required the removal of the intake plenum and other stuff but the assurance that it is indeed new and done right was so worth it.

    i had the engine out for service and the supercharger project but the hoses went on once in the motor was back in. silicone hose for the coolant lines and continantal hose for the rest. i still have a pile of the hose left over, guessed on what i needed.

    i can't tell you how many hoses looked new/good from the outside but were rotted or shot on the inside.

    take the plunge and go the distance, it'll save you more now than later when a hose gives up the ghost on the highway.

    i know the feeling my mondi was down for 2 months sorting the engine. but now i know her quite well.
    happy motoring!
     
  16. RJay

    RJay Formula Junior

    Jun 26, 2004
    261
    Colorado
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    Bob
    Scott,

    Thanks for the advice. I AM trying to replace the hoses. I have done fuel delivery, fuel filler and some cooling segments. This job comprises the last of the cooling segments. The braided hoses in the pics are the evap hoses and I am not too concerned (should I be?)

    Still....does anyone know how to remove the water deposits?

    -Rjay
     
  17. DavidDriver

    DavidDriver F1 Rookie
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    May 9, 2006
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    Well, since you're "in there".

    If it were me, I'd just take it off, and give it a ride on the wire-wheel for a few seconds.

    I suppose you could do it in-place with steel-wool; But I'd be a little concerned about getting the wire dust from the steel-wool inside, where it could cause unnecessary wear on the pump.

    I'm sure would probably only be a small amount of dust. But why have any dirt at all, (especially the kind that doesn't dissolve) when you don't have to?

    In fact, use a little mag-cleaner and you can make it look bright, shiney and new! However, only do that if you so take it off, as it is corrosive (phosphoric acid), and you want to wash all of that stuff off before replacing the housing.
     
  18. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    evap hoses are even more of a concern than liquid fuel, fuel in it's liquid state does not ignite but the vapors make a nice 'BOOM' the heat cycle of the engine will wear out the hoses also. i'd replace them all. it's a pain i know to remove the carbs and linkage but it does make it easier to replace the hoses. catch 22. how about the cross over hoses between the carbs?

    it's funney you need about 12" of coolant hose for the large pipe and pegasus sells it in 36" leangth. 3 guys could get together and share the hose. i gave the left over to nick for his engines. one of those share the 'tool' type things, only it's parts in this case.

    i was able to source 3' of 2.25" I.D. fuel hose, coast gaurd approved marine stuff. i'll only need about a 1' anyone need some also. for me it's the fuel filler hose to the tanks.
     
  19. marankie

    marankie Formula Junior

    Aug 30, 2004
    252
    Agoura Hills, Calif
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    Martin
    Just went thru one of those when I replaced the waterpump shaft seal and teh cam belts. Underneath the colored corosion where the hoses clamp on, was a lot on deep corosion which I "milled" out with a Dremmel tool. It is like a white powder. Then I filled up the coorion pits with JB weld and smoothed it out with sandpaper. O lot of effort. Did some of the same locally in the aluminum tubes. All new water hoses through out were installed threafter.
     
  20. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    Sep 30, 2003
    16,620
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    i would stuff a rag in the pipe, add some marvel mystery oil to a piece of scotch brite and remove the lite surface corrosion that way. be sure to clean the surface with carb cleaner so the new hose is not affected by the oil residue.
     
  21. Zigno

    Zigno Karting

    You mentioned one of the passenger side cv joint boots was flinging grease. That is the same side as the timing belts. You might want to check the rear belt. Stick your fingers in there and feel the belt on both sides. If you can tell that the belt is slippery/greasy, and you've got any black grease on the fingers, put timing belts on your list.
     
  22. RJay

    RJay Formula Junior

    Jun 26, 2004
    261
    Colorado
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    Bob
    So, I was able to get the cooling segments back on without any pump or carburetor removal. It is a bit tedious but it works. Here's how it went..

    Use a razor blade to cut the old hoses off starting with the one from the pump to the fast idle cam (upper) followed by the pump to the long tube heading off toward the drivers side (lower). The old pipe clamps were eventually accessible and can be cut off if need be.

    The lower hose is the real PITA since it is right down on the engine block. There are three segments from the lower hose that were replaced. There is the one from the main tube going forward (right under the foward bank of 4 cylinders) to an angled tube which winds around the drivers side just about up to the air pump valve. There is the one from this tube to another tube that climbs over the top of the engine and feeds the pump. There is finally the last one which is just below the fast idle cam.

    The tube from the air pump valve area to the water pump is about 18" long and has a slight angle bend and an elbow. This tube can be removed by taking the oil filter off and wiggling it out.

    Note - Both of the aluminum tubes I mentioned had small divots where they had rubbed into some bolt on the side of the engine. One was very minor and I left it alone. The other was a deep gouge probably about to rupture. On this one, I cleaned the gouge, packed it with JB weld, and slid a rubber sleeve over it. It is difficult to see all the areas where this might touch the engine, if at all. My point here, is to make sure you check these tubes when replacing the rubber.

    Now for the PITA tube. I put the segment on the tube that would attach to the water pump. Two clamps were put on. One to secure the segment to the tube, and the second right next to the first waiting to slide forward when the segment is pushed onto the pump. Both clamps had their screws facing up and to the rear of the car (This seemed to be the best accessability when the hose was installed). I COULD NOT push that tube onto the pump at first. It wants to walk off to one side and you barely have leverage reaching through the left rear well and grasping the elbow of this tube.

    So... I put a third clamp, on the tube, just behind the segment. This clamp had two small rings so that when it was tight, the rings would stick out. The tube was put in position and I had a friend (you gotta have another person here) come over. I took a long rod of steel and made a small hook at the end. One person has to reach in through the wheel well and the second hooks the little ring on the clamp just behind the segment. Now someone can push and twist (important to twist to get the hose on), and the other person can pull hard with the rod/hook tool. A little water and a warm hose and it went on quickly. The ring/clamp was removed. The second clamp was slid over onto the pump and the whole thing tighted up.

    The hose from the pump to the fast idle cam simply has to be warmed and worked onto the idle cam side first and then the water pump side. Lots of grunting here but she goes.

    Last, the elbow tube to it's mate right behind the air pump valve goes on with a bit of grunting too. I found it was easier to do the elbow side first and bring the mate up to it.


    Anyway, thanks for the advice everyone.


    -Rjay
     
  23. Nickt

    Nickt Formula 3

    Feb 24, 2006
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    #20 Nickt, Sep 1, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You might find that this was rubbing against the clutch adjuster, Mine went completely and dumped the entire cooling system all over the road so I had to do exactly the same as you.
    I took it to a welding shop first and they made a right pigs ear of it.
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  24. RJay

    RJay Formula Junior

    Jun 26, 2004
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    Nick,

    Where did you get a picture of my car??? :)

    I saw that clutch adjuster too. That was the other divot I didn't repair...yet. I noticed that depending on the length of the segments and how much the tube is pushed in, will set whether it touches an engine part or not. Right now, the whole thing seems to be floating but I know that will change with vibration and heat.

    BTW, does "Pigs Ear" mean good fix?

    -Rjay
     
  25. Nickt

    Nickt Formula 3

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    #22 Nickt, Sep 1, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    LOL
    At least you don't have the picture of the car on the back of a tow truck or the one with coolant all over the road!

    pigs ear = complete balls up!
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  26. RJay

    RJay Formula Junior

    Jun 26, 2004
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    Nick,

    LOL! Thanks for the pics and I definately feel your pain. When my cooling segment blew, I was just sweeping into a parking lot and I left a trail about 100 meters long. Since it was coolant, it didn't evaporate for sometime. The trail ran right up to the back of the car and just about EVERYBODY noticed it. I was getting emails like "Um..you might want to check your car" - Doh! I then towed it with an SUV. Man, steering a Ferrari 6 feet off the bumper of another car going 40mph is not fun. I have also stalled at a stoplight much to the delight of the other drivers. I still love my car!

    -Rjay
     

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