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Odd F1 Problem

Discussion in '360/430' started by spider348, May 21, 2020.

  1. spider348

    spider348 Formula 3
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    Nov 3, 2003
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    Full Name:
    John
    Strange F1 Problem on my last drive. Looking for some input from others that may have experienced a similar issue or issues.

    2001 360 F1 spider. Last generation(2004?) TCU. New clutch with 3k miles after install. 30k on car.

    Sunday eve took car for a short drive. Warmed up prior to starting off. 360 still cold so short shifts until oil temp in range. Noted slow shift 1st to 2nd. Not much notice, F1 does not react well to short shifts.
    Drove about 5 miles, all normal. Downshifted for a right turn onto side street. Noted the car was still in 4th. No reaction from the paddles. Would not upshift or downshift. Managed to turn around in 4th to head home. Made the mistake of pulling both paddles to neutral. Went to neutral. Gearbox would not shift into gear. Drifted to safe place off road.
    The Gearbox Failure icon was showing on dash during problem.
    Let car sit for a couple of minutes. Started, icon still showing. No gears. Called my wife to pick up.
    After about 10 minutes waiting, started again. No icon. Shifted into gear. Drove home. Car shifted normal.
    Prior to drive:
    3 weeks prior installed Scud ing F1 relay. Prior generation to current product. Drove 3~4 times since. No problems. Relay and gearbox fine.
    Day before. Checked gearbox fluid. Level unchanged/fine.
    Changes Noted:
    F1 pump. Longer to prime. Timed after sitting 3 days. 14+ seconds. 24 hours later 14 seconds.
    Holds pressure well once primed.
    Last year noted I could hear the F1 pump while driving. Whining sound when on. Sounds normal in garage.
    Checked with my autel mini clone. No codes shown. Clone does not appear to operate consistently, Another topic for later.
    My thoughts:
    Failure due in part to F1 pump. No red light on Scud ing relay I could see. Probably a good time to replace pump.
    Looked at the Juri upgraded pump on ebay. Reasonable price. Others experience?
    Other recommendations based on experience?
    Sorry for long post! Thanks for any input.
     
  2. imahorse

    imahorse Formula Junior

    Nov 25, 2017
    273
    WI
    Full Name:
    Dustin
    The pump could be a possible culprit. You can get one cheaper using the alfa romeo p/n IIRC. The F1 accumulator starting to go is generally attributed to longer prime times. My car has has had that issue since I got it with no other issues. *knock on wood*

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  3. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    How many shifts with engine off key on can you get before cycle of pump ?

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  4. Fangio5

    Fangio5 Rookie

    Mar 10, 2012
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    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Martin Rouillard
    I just read your story and laughed. The same exact thing happened to me last week while on a drive with a 2007 F430. The car was towed to the dealer where they found a failed f1 hydraulic actuator potentiometer. The car was repaired and runs fine now. Good luck with your issue.
     
  5. CarAholic

    CarAholic Formula Junior

    May 10, 2016
    390
    Was just going to say potentiometer


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  6. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    1,683
    Central NJ
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    Dominick
    I would like to get a few answers before taking a stab

    If the sensor was bad it should have set a error ..he mentioned no errors

    My plan if attack would be in this order

    Gear relearn
    Bleeding
    Accumulator
    Pump

    Let's see if OP gives us some more insight

    Recycle times .. how many shifts between recycle .. idle without shifts recycle .. maybe OP can share data from his diagnosis tool of pump cycle on etc



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  7. spider348

    spider348 Formula 3
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    Nov 3, 2003
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    Thank you. I have a Zoom meeting tonight with Japan. No time to test.
    Will take suggestions and run tests Friday evening.
    Data from tool has been a bit flaky as of late. May need to look at the Autel mini to replace.
    Will update soon.
     
  8. gsworld2014

    gsworld2014 Formula 3

    Dec 23, 2014
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    Greg S
    How long since clutch was replaced? Throw out bearing ?
     
  9. spider348

    spider348 Formula 3
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    Hi, 2 years ago/2.5k miles. Whole package: Pressure Plate, Clutch Pack, Hill Bearing, Position sensor etc. Gearbox flawless since service until now. Tech did state F1 pump motor was noisy, consider replacing soon. Probably curse myself but no codes shown on dash ever. SD-X showed all function tests good.
    When I can get the Launch clone to work right, no codes shown. Will order the Launch X431 Pro Mini this weekend from ebay. Clone was always problematic.
    Will test per Flash22 and others tonight. Try to pull codes again.
     
  10. spider348

    spider348 Formula 3
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    Nov 3, 2003
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    Suggested test done. Thanks for reviewing.
    Prime from Cold 14 seconds
    Shifts: 4(N-1-N-1)
    Prime 3 seconds+-
    Repeat/Same
    Pressure 50.2 bar-3 minutes-48.2 bar
    PumpTime On 1562 minutes
    System Time On 40644 minutes
    My knowledge base. Old, grew up as a kid with points, distributer, carbs and cams. Hard parts are not an issue. Rebuilt my prior 348 gearbox, 355 motor etc. The modern electronic systems are interesting but a learning experience for myself!
     
  11. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    how long does it take to cycle in idle without do anything ? is that the 3 minutes you describing ?
    Also does your tool have data mapping .. can you map 1 thru 6 shifts and pressure chart ?
    does the pump sound healthy or strange as it is priming .. like a any type of pump on a weak battery ?
     
  12. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    Also any stored error codes ?

    Can your tool do a gear box relearn

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  13. spider348

    spider348 Formula 3
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    Thank you Flash22.
    The 3 minutes relates to a pressure drop of 2 bar sitting car not running.
    Did not time the period between prime and pump pressurizing again due to pressure drop. I know driving, the time between cycles is significant. Can see when the pump cycles on the scud ing relay remote. No "Red" light ever shown on the scud ing remote indicating pump/pressure failure.
    Pump sounds marginally louder currently. Cycles strong, you can tell the cycle approaches pressure by sound change weakens.
    No stored codes. again clone tool is not functioning consistently.
    I will check data mapping capability as well as gearbox relearn.
    Thanks again for the help!
     
  14. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dominick
    Trying to take a step by step approach

    Please also give us the pis and clutch wear index if you can

    Silly question .. is the fluid at proper level and is hatch latch giving you any indication of issue ?



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  15. spider348

    spider348 Formula 3
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    Thanks again.
    PIS reads 4.47(Note year ago SD2 set at 4.5)
    Fluid at proper level(Silly me, learned the hard way a year ago not to follow the WSM and fill to dip stick level!)
    Never had to add fluid in 2 1/2 years owned.
    Never had an issue with any of the hatch, bonnet, etc micro switches.
    Just tried to pull codes. Reader not working properly. Lenovo tablet with Diagzone Pro software. Sometimes works, often not. that is another issue to address!
     
  16. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    At this point

    we can say it is one of three things

    Sensors ..that is why I would suggest a relearn
    Accumulator..
    Screws on actuator ...live data as you shift thru the gears and monitor pressure will show that
    Also a good bleed would be where I start

    I think your tool has all the functions to do relearn and bleed

    Let's see what the data shows

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  17. spider348

    spider348 Formula 3
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    Thank you again Flash22.
    Without consistent data from the tool I doubt I can determine root cause of the problem.
    Will start a separate thread regarding issues I am experiencing with the tool. Others may recommend fix or method change based on experience.
    You are correct. If tool functions properly bleed and relearn capability are available.
     
  18. flash32

    flash32 Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Ok let me know what you decide to do

    Have a good day

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  19. billy.gif

    billy.gif Karting

    Mar 9, 2017
    239
    Finland
    #19 billy.gif, May 25, 2020 at 4:29 AM
    Last edited: May 25, 2020 at 4:47 AM
    Is this the "Hydraulic circuit pressure" at the Launch X431 tabs? What kind of rate will it drop when engine is running and no input from driver?

    Here's how mine drop after a "winter hibernation", check the video please.



    Prime time from cold was 12 sec, car had not been started for 6 months and driver door had not been opened for 4 months. I'm tackling kind of similar problems than you. When car gets hot the F1-system will eventually throw it into Neutral and wont change gears until its cooled down (usually takes 45min to hour).

    So far:
    -F1 pump has been changed.
    -F1 actuator has been rebuilt.
    -System has been bled like 10 times.
    -Gearbox relearn has been done 5-10 times (both to cold and fully warmed up car).
    -No error codes what so ever (battery switch untouched).
    -The F1 warning light (at the dash) has not been visible nor blinking ever.
    -Whole clutch pack (throw out bearing, flywheel, clutch) was changed 3 years / 10k miles ago.
    -No unusual wear at the clutch.
    -Tried different F1-actuator from a high mileage (80k miles) car, then the F1-system worked ... actually for days, but it occasionally struggled (slow / laggy shifts) and once left me stranded with similar symptoms (throws Neutral and wont select any gear before car has cooled).
    -Tried different (albeit used) F1-potentiometers with said loan actuator - made no difference.

    Have not tried:
    -Replace all the solenoids.
    -Accumulator bulb.

    Scaries me most:
    -Gearbox rebuild.

    Notes:
    -When rebuilt actuator arrived my tech struggled with the "re-learn" process, it was a PITA to get it pass.
    -When said high mileage actuator was borrowed, the "re-learn" process went trough instantly.
    -The metal wear might affect things?
    -I've heard some sort of mechanical adjustment between gearbox and F1-actuator which should be done every time when actuator is removed / reinstalled? Kind of "mechanical relearn" with shim washers and all? Some said that Ferrari WSM (workshop manual) even has a section about this process, just cannot find these posts anymore.

    My tech, albeit having a decade long experience from modern classics like Maseratis, Alfa-Romeos and Ferraris is no expert with F1-system quirks. But he has installed actuators to 360/430 platform, Lambo E-Gear systems, Alfa Selespeed systems and never experienced what my car is constantly doing.
     
  20. Marcoboxer

    Marcoboxer Karting

    Oct 5, 2019
    57
    Roswell, GA
    Full Name:
    Mark Roberts
    Here’s a video from Scott showing the mechanical adjustment you mention.

    I think it’s around the 15 minute mark, but the whole thing is worth watching.
     
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  21. billy.gif

    billy.gif Karting

    Mar 9, 2017
    239
    Finland
    Thank you, that was the "shimming" but I also recall that somewhere here (or at www.clubscuderia.co.uk ) was some discussion / posts about same. Even a direct screenshot from the said Ferrari WSM section.
     
  22. 355Aussie

    355Aussie Formula Junior
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    Jul 3, 2007
    540
    Sydney
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    George
    Remove that relay now!!!! Had many issues on 3 Ferrari we installed them on and it was the latest advanced version. Once we removed them and installed the original OEM none of us have had any of the issues which were similar to yours in over a year of driving. Stefan and Scuding was very non helpful and quite arrogant. Refused to acknowledge any issues. I would not use that relay but there are people over in your neck of the woods that say they are happy. For me no thanks on the Scuding relay.
     

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