I guess that I have to be a spoiler about the B-17 replicas or re-do's . Nine O Nine is in the wrong color and displays the wrong color application. The WW2 color of olive drab was not a pale grey-green. It was a darker olive drab, a dull darker color than what is on Nine- O- Nine. The grey was a medium grey not a light mouse gray that is so many times incorrectly used now. The demarkation line between the O.D. and grey on the fuselage was not wavy but straight. The O.D. on the nacelles dropped down from the wing leading edge to the maximum half breadth of the nacelle and then followed the curve of the leading edge of the cowling all the way around the circumference to the other side and thence back to the wing leading edge. I know, who the hell cares, but I was there then. All one has to do is to look at the old photos of a camo'ed B-17. They exuded strength, stability, grace, and reliability. One was comfortable as soon as you boarded the airplane. Small and cramped in the waist positions and rudimentary in the flight deck BUT what a great airplane! You could freeze to death on it but it was stabile and sturdy and gallant and tried as hard as you did to get back. There will never again be anything like it.
I have done a study on the airplane and the way it was configured and I have started an engineering style drawing on it that displays the loft and internal structure. Designed in 1935, it carries forward the Warren Truss construction that was used on all the previous old airplanes except in aluminum. The spar was a bolted and riveted truss of square aluminum tubing as were the wing ribs. The inner skin was corrugated aluminum and the outer was .051 aluminum. It was an over-designed multi-load path structure that could withstand tremendous damage as demonstrated during the war. The horizontal tail was the same as that used on the B-29 except for the symetrical section. The B-17 E was a test bed for the B-29 empennage and they left it on subsequent B-17 models. The vertical tail was capable of extreme damage too due to its wing-like construction. It was designed for a gross weight of 34000 pounds originally but by the end of the war it was flying at near double that without having any beef-up to anything. The Wright R-1820 engine was( is) one of the better Wrights and was tough and reliable. Many times they were run for long times at max boost and survived.. It wasn't as modern, fast, and load-capable, or sophisticated as the B-24 but it was TOUGHER and could fly higher, and could take much more damage. Then, I have flown in B-24's and knew many " B-two Dozen" pilots who swear by the B-24 because it could give you every drop of fuel in the tanks and had more range. and load. But they wouldn't get above 25000 feet with a full load and they flew like a bathtub full of water at their maximum altitude...according to many B-17 pilots.
Last May, about 15 of us pushed the Memphis Belle into my work hangar due to a storm coming in. That plane is a HEAVY Beeyatch. I have pics of all the aircraft in our three bay hangar, but they won't upload to this site. Damn.
Went up in the Liberty Belle this summer when it came into town. What a great time. Sitting and looking through the bomb site was a trip... I blew the hell out of Northridge Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Really nice photos , thank you very much. It is heart warming to see a few more B-17's restored and flying. Since I was in a couple of them 64 years ago I have to add , though, that the interiors were never zinc chromated except in the cockpit and nose and they were dark green (zinc chromate with black added). The rest of the interior was bare aluminum. No need to put protective finish on something that wasn't expected to last in combat for more than a hundred hours or less. The photos show a nice and tidy interior but minus a lot of the wiring. Which, by the way, usually had the lockstitch cut and the bundles fanned out to minimize damage from a flack hit or a bullet. The patina of sustained heavy action was unremovable from these airplanes and they wore it like an old boxer. Many times the interiors had traces of blood and vomit in the cranny's. The nacelles were caked with carbon and cooked- on oil and a lot of rivets were loose on some.
Thank you for painting that mental image. I wish the airplane guys would take a cue from a recent trend in collector cars and that is to leave them with their original and undisturbed cosmetic appearance, only restoring the mechanicals. Somehow seeing a Fort looking like it just returned from Schweinfurt would be a special experience. Back in the early nineties I was at Wright Pat and outside the museum on one of the old blocked off taxiways was a rather rough looking Phantom II sitting all by itself and it wasn't hard imagining it was in a revetment in Takhli in 1968 waiting to go out and do battle yet again. I stood and stared at that Lead Sled for some time more out of respect than anything else and wishing it could talk. Dont really get that feeling so much when I see a restored one. I suppose for the sake of safety that is not practical though.
Thank you for sharing the nice photos. Here is the interior of the B-17 operated in France. I took the photos in Duxford this summer. Cockpit looks a little bit more tired (or unrestored). Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
This airplane is correct in color, dull finish, and application of the paint particularly on the nacelles where the O.D. color wraps around the lower lip of the cowl. The spray overlap instead of the taped edges is the right way to do it too. I like the original tail gunner's window instead of the Cheyenne Mod also. It says " Old Fort". I forgot to mention that like a new car with its new car smell, old B-17's had an old airplane smell too.
I fear that I am putting too much into this thread but the comments and photos have triggered a flood of memories I have found nearer to the surface than previously thought. To disspell any thoughts that I served overseas I must state that I did not. I only rode around here in the states...training training but I was introduced to many veteran crews and veteran airplanes and thanked God that I didn't have to go through what they did. I repeat, nobody now can realize what the air crews went through in 1942, 1943 in the operations against the Nazis in Europe. There is no record of ANY CREW turning back from a mission due to enemy action in the ETO or MTO. I know of two instances where one or two airplanes were all that returned from missions where twelve were sent out. And then they went back out as soon as there were enough airplanes. I flew with a guy who still had wounds in his back and backside oozing pus from flak. Too many stories.
Bob, I have in my possession the flying class graduation book (The Gig Sheet) from my great uncle John T. Roberts. He graduated from class 43-C that began training August 8 1942 and finished March 20 1943 from Pampa Army Flying School in North Texas. AFAIK, he flew B-25s out of N. Africa and at that time they only had to fly 25 missions. He completed his 25 and was supposed to return stateside to become an instructor. Instead he volunteered to fly supply missions in Burma (the hump). My family still has the telegram from the War Department claiming him MIA. I have a Gurka knife he sent home from the far east.
Those items mentioned will be treasures to you, your children, and their children if they are kept safe. I lost almost all of my items from the service when I divorced and when my mother died, the house was quickly sold with everything in it by my late older sister and photos and memento's from my air force days went with it. My late brother-in-law flew in the CBI and did the Hump many times in C46's. From what he described, that was as bad as the skies over Europe. Very dangerous weather and some enemy activity.
This B-17 belly-landed in France, September 1944. After some researches, I found the rest of the crew members about 10 years ago and they came to visit us. I gave them some photos and we found also some plane parts. They invited us at their homes in the States, and we're still in contact with them. Hundreds such planes came down in our countries. It was just terrible, and more than 60 years later, there is still much to do. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thank you for posting these interesting photos, Francis. I noticed in the non standard cuff on the exhaust pipe on No.2 nacelle of Pink Lady. It appears to be some sort of heat muff or heater air intake instead of the glycol boiler probes that can be seen on No.2 exhaust in the photo of the crash-landed B-17. These boilers picked up heat in the glycol and routed it into the cabin heater heat exchanger. Didn't heat much at 40 below. Keep the pictures coming. Bob
My dad was a B17 pilot ,only flew a few missions right at the end of the war in Europe. He told some great stories. A few years ago(EAA's) Aluminum Overcast was in Richmond Va for flights. I cannot imagine what is was like going into combat. The noise, vibration, cold ,must have been incrediable. Just the local flight was incrediable.Walking across the bomb bay on the narrow cat walk is a job, not to mention having to move around with all the equipemnt on, add that to someone shooting at you must have gotten your attention. I did not realize how much physical work moving the controls were ,even after getting trimmed out.At 25-30,000 feet it was some chore . In the later part of the war fighter escort( P51's primarily) were used to and from the target. Dad said they would get up(very early) eat, brief , preflight , takeoff , form up and head over to the target. At some point the escort would catch and join up ( dad said thoes guys could sleep in ). Since everyone was edgy on the triggers ,when the escort closed in they had to ID themselves without radio comunication. So one of the 51's would take a position way off the wing of one of the bombers, and slowly slide in so they could ID the profile of the Mustang and hopefully not get fired upon. My Dad always wondered how they picked that lucky guy !! He also flew some liberation missions( after VE day),to pick up POWs. He said there were some sad sights.
My late and dear friend, Lew, a B-24 pilot had a story that he always enjoyed. Returning from a mission to Vienna with one engine shot up and serious damge, a P-38 joined up with them to escort them back to Castellucio ( Foggia Main) . Twenty years later while working at Boeing, Lew was introduced to a man with whom he would be working on the C5 project proposal. They went out to lunch frequently and talked about their war experiences (I was with them) and Lew mentioned the flight with the P-38 tucked in beside them. They compared dates and aircraft ID numbers and tearfully discovered that they both were the players in his story about his P-38 escort. The shock and elation were terribly emotional for all of us and doubly serendipidous (spl) because as I mentioned before, the photographer who flew with Lew and took the pictures of " Extra Joker" being shot up was with me at Langley Field , Va. in 1944. Its a small world.
Very interesting thread. I really respect these "heavies" and their crews (endless respect for the fighter escorts too but that's for another thread). A few years ago, I remember seeing a bit of a show on TV about "Glacier Girl" - I'm sure you all know the story. What became of the B-17s that were buried with Glacier Girl? Thanks.
That's another interesting story. I was asked to go on that expedition because of all the data that I had on the B-17 re handling fixtures and loads. It never materialized for some reason but as I predicted, the B-17's were crushed beyond repair by the glacial ice and movement. The P-38's were spared for some reason. It's a real shame because the B-17's at one time were recoverable but as usual, nobody was interested at the time.
Thanks Bob - your knowledge is a huge asset to the community. I was doing some Googling after my original question and came across "My Gal Sal" and I got excited thinking that was the B-17 with Glacier Girl and it was recovered and restored (or hoped to be restored). But now I see that was a different incident and plane altogether correct? The Glacier Girl B-17 that was crushed was "Big Stoop"?
I think that you are correct. The B-17 was " Big Stoop" from what I can gather. This goes back to 1986 when this thing started. I was asked to attend a meeting near Boeing Field to provide some technical data and info to see if the project to raise the B-17 was feasable. At the time they said that it was 250 feet under the ice. Knowing what glaciers can do when they are moving and the weights involved I said that there was little hope that the B-17 was salvageable. When they found it it was completely ground up by the ice. I have no idea why or how the P-38 survived except that it was smaller and more compact. To add to the story, the inboard wing of a B-17 weighs about 11000 pounds if I remember correctly. It would have been a strenuous job to recover.
I'm so happy I stumbled across this thread, I am a big fan of the B-17, and really anything World War 2 related. I've been collecting medals and other memorabilia for 5+ years now (I'm only 20 so 5 years is a while to me) haha. I will watch this thread closely.
I was born in 1966. My next door neighbor for a few years flew P47's. My father worked with the Navigator in the B17 Postal stamp. In the late '70's Behind Long Beach Airport there was a B17 and a couple of B25's for a while. We would crawl under the fence and play in thoose old birds...we never did any damage to them.
Thank you for your comment.I have been around for too long and I havebeen infatuated with the B-17 for 65 years and having worked at Boeing for 48 years I had access to a lot of archival information as well as having been around them during the war. I have entertained writing a book on the technical aspects of the airplane. There are too many war stories about it already but i don't think that the newest generation realizes just how archaic it was when it entered the war. It was designed in 1935 and knowledge of all metal construction was in its infancy. The B-17 airframe was a hybrid of the " modern" metal techniques and a hangover of the wooden techniques from the 20's. The wing spars were built like the old bridges using Warren Truss members of bolted and squared aluminum tubing. The ribs were done the same way. The inter- spar area or wing box was a two layer affair with an inner skin of heavy corrugated aluminum covered and riveted to an outer layer of skin. So you had a sort of composite multiple load path construction with a spar like the Brooklyn Bridge and an indestructable dual skin that carried as much load as the spars. That's why it could take direct flak hits sometimes and survive it. The Boeing structures guys weren't exactly certain that it was strong enough so they made sure that there was no doubt when they were finished. The gross weight was increased time and again and there was no need to beef up the wing or anything else. The vertical tail was built like a wing as was the horizontal and again they could take immense punishment. A typical Boeing bomber was as stabile as train on a track in cruise and the B-17 and B-29 displayed that. The B-17 was an engineering marvel that happened at the right time. An over-designed, comparatively rudimentary, archaic machine that did an unbelievable job in saving the allied world.
