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OffTopic: Nissan Leaf

Discussion in 'Northwest' started by davequick, Jan 24, 2011.

  1. davequick

    davequick Formula Junior

    May 27, 2003
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    I got minie last week. Looks like they have only delivered about 62 world wide and a production delay means they likely won't deliver any more until April so for the time being it's very unique/exotic. ;-)

    I'll likely drive it to the go carting on the 29th if anyone wants to take a peek.

    Funny looking car - but my wife loves it and we're always looking at different things.

    -Dave

    BTW - I alos got a Bentley Arnage - so I'm selling the Turbo R if anyone wants it or wants to know about it just shoot me a PM.
     
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  3. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

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    Hey Dave,

    Just stick the leaf in the trunk, and you'll have a town car on those long trips ;-O

    J
     
  4. tr0768

    tr0768 Formula Junior

    Oct 28, 2008
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    Electric cars have been around over 100 years. Interesting to read the purposed range and ablilities of these new so called "wonder cars". They are supposed to be green and envo compatable.

    Lets set the record straight, after the afore mentioned 100 plus years of development, they still require electricity from the grid to recharge. Also in our local they will travel approx 100 miles.

    I own a 1913 Waverley Electric automobile, which requires electricity from the grid to recharge, will travel approx 100 miles on a full charge. Now the interesting part is my wet cell batteries are completly recycleable where the new generation lithium batteries are not, repeat not recycleable period. At this time according to the Fedral Government there is no legal way of disposing automotive lithium batteries. The wrecking yards have piles of old Pirus lithium batteries and no where to legaly dispose of them. Maybe this new generation of electric vehicles are not as green as we are being lead to believe. As a side bar the only affordable sorce of lithium is China!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Just sayin'

    Howard Musolf 1981 308gtsi
    1982 400i Cabriolet
    1987 Lotus Esprit Turbo
    Maserati Spider
     
  5. normv

    normv Formula 3
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    #4 normv, Jan 25, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
    Hello one reason there is a delay is that China was holding up rare earth elements to Japan, in retaliation of Island land disputes. Those electric motors have a lot of copper in them which is why Toyota is developing a new electric motor that uses less, for the Prius. lithium being another concern for Japan as where do they get it from, there traditional enemy China!
     
  6. M Baker

    M Baker Formula Junior

    Apr 9, 2010
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    Toyota or Honda or others have not been using Lithium batteries in their hybrid vehicles due to development problems (they catch on fire!) But will start doing so in their next hybrid releases. So Lithium auto batteries in junkyards are not a problem now, but will be when they start failing in five to ten years from the next generation of Lithium battery hybrids. We don't know the life expectancy for sure.

    The mainstream automobile hybrid batteries in use are Nickel-metal hydride (NMH) batteries which do allow you to recycle the nickel. Thus far, NMH have had about a 10 year lifespan or so. The first mainstream Hybrid was the 1999 Honda Insight, which has been out for a decade, so those NMH battery packs are now starting to reach their end of life.

    I agree that it is a fallacy to think a pure electric powered car is clean, it just puts the mess somewhere else as that energy has to come from somewhere. We are fortunate that in Snohomish County the majority of our energy is 78% hydro (which still has its effects on the environment) 9% coal and 7% nuclear. Puget Sound Energy is 36% hydro, 32% coal, 30% natural gas. Most other parts of the country rely on coal and/or nuclear. On Maui they use diesel to generate electricity - so there you can buy an electric car, powered by a diesel powerplant! Wow, isn't that special!
     
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  8. davequick

    davequick Formula Junior

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    #6 davequick, Jan 30, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2011
    Internal prius batteries are lead acid for the 12v sistem and nickel-metal hydride for the "hybrid" portion. the only lithium ion batteries in a prius are people that have added the moral equivalent of the A123 Hymotion to make it a plug in hybrid electric. (Which I had before the leaf. :)

    Each Lithium Ion battery contains 10 to 13% cobalt by weight. It is ionic lithium in the battery. Then another 2 metals for a majority of battery foundaries. A company named Umicore recyles all four metals used in lithium ion batteries. Many people and companies are following in their footsteps.


    Internal prius batteries are lead acid for the 12v sistem and nickel-metal hydride for the "hybrid" portion. the only lithium ion batteries in a prius are people that have added the moral equivalent of the A123 Hymotion to make it a plug in hybrid electric. (Which I had before the leaf. :)

    Much more so a couple years ago. They keep improving that too now.

    The GM battery guy said something along the lines of this when questioned at an uto show - I can't find the quote though I know it's close:
    The energies that can be released from a 24k watt lithium ion are certainly less of a concern than driving with 20 gallons of gasoline. Can a battery burn in an accident that causes it to burn? Yes. It might, but it's not like you're driving around in a bomb.

    I don't concede that.

    "Due to efficiency of electric engines as compared to combustion engines, even when the electricity used to charge electric vehicles comes from a CO2 emitting source, such as a coal or gas fired powered plant, the net CO2 production from an electric car is typically one half to one third of that from a comparable combustion vehicle."[sources]
    ^ Chip Gribben. "Debunking the Myth of EVs and Smokestacks". Retrieved 15 October 2010.
    ^ Lincol NEV (August 3, 2007). "Are NEVs Really Cleaner?". Retrieved 15 October 2010.

    These sound like talking points from Rush Limbaugh more than anything else. Geez - I thought people would like playing with all kinds of cars. That's why we have the leaf, a 1981 240D that runs B99 biodiesel (but would be capable of running diesel type i or ii or even kerosene), and the Bentleys because for now gas is cheap. :) The electric car - for me is a fun toy. I think that having an ability to move away from foreign oil is more important to me than anything else - then moving away from oil in general since I think we'll see $30/gallon+ in my lifetime.
     
  9. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I'm glad you believe that. Try googling "lithium battery explosion" and watch some of the videos...

    I had an ex-CEO of a lithium battery company in my office a few months ago. He was not sanguine about the risks-- and he commented that he had seen them blow up in test cells.

     
  10. Korr

    Korr F1 World Champ
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    Fixed. ;)
     
  11. davequick

    davequick Formula Junior

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    #9 davequick, Jan 31, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
    I have. We'll see what it's like in the field after a couple years. I'm happy to be one of the guinea pigs given what I've read and watched and talked with various people in the industry.

    We'll see whether there are more Ferrari 458s or [Nissan Leafs, Teslas, and other electric cars] that are [melted, exploded] as a result of design flaws. So far Ferrari is in the lead with one recall from multiple melted 458s, right? Doesn't matter what you drive, all of these are large volatile machines.
     
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  13. LouB

    LouB Formula 3

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    I would be very interested in hearing about your real effective driving range not the EPA standard test window sticker range. Real right foot driving, with the heater blasting, radio on, lights on and not just city stop and go for max regeneration.
     
  14. Cornbread

    Cornbread Formula Junior

    Mar 21, 2009
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    Great posts Dave.

    I share your interest of playing with all sorts of cars, as well as your thoughts on gas and its use.

    Very informative reading.
     
  15. GaryReed

    GaryReed F1 Rookie

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    Thar she blows!

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjAtBiTSsKY[/ame]
     
  16. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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  17. sammyb

    sammyb Formula 3

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    #14 sammyb, Jan 31, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
    Back in the early 1900s, electric and steam-powered car manufacturers both marketed against gas-powered vehicles by explaining that gas-powered cars ran on small explosions, and should anything go slightly off, there would be a very big explosion.

    I've gone on record many times in articles against the Prius and the Leaf. The Prius just isn't that good at anything, while the Leaf is still a toy that requires another car in the family. (Plus the Leaf adds no benefits to vehicles produced in the 1890s.)

    The Volt is an entirely different monster, because it is a Leaf and a conventional car in one package. Plus that technology will go on to power every front-wheel-drive product GM produces. (So in other words, even if you don't like the Volt package, you'll be able to get the benefits in a Caddy, Buick or cheaper Chevy sedan or coupe.)

    BTW- Tesla had an advertised range of 200 miles when their media test car ran out of juice during track testing at under 40 miles. If you live more than ten miles from a track, you can't safely drive a Tesla to race and drive it back. You can drive a Volt to Sebring, race it for 12 hours (slowly!!!!) and drive it anywhere. Of course, it's a Chevy, so it'll probably also give you a tremendous back ache from poor seats and creak and moan from every cheap plastic part.
     
  18. davequick

    davequick Formula Junior

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    haters gonna hate. why doesn't any ferrari haul a horse or come with a snowplow attachment or seat 6 comfortably. because it's a different market. i think the leaf is awesome.

    the leaf is the fourth car in the house and does great at fetching the kids from school and driving to work - we drive less than 10 miles a day on average. to do it with no requirement of foreign oil and supporting a new technology is perfect and if we care to go far we have other cars for the time being.

    my wife just drove to the marysville outlets from bellevue and back and had an indicated 29 miles to go after that 80 mile trip so I'd the 100 miles they tout under average driving conditions is more than fine for anythign we'll ever do in that particular car.

    i just think there are different tools for different jobs - the leaf seems like an awesome tool to have available. 99% of the time our nanny will drive it to fetch the kidsduring the week and we'll use it to go to seattle on the weekends.

    :)
     
  19. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

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    The NW is one of the few places you can say it won’t use foreign oil, here, it runs on Dammmmmm water. Let us know how much juice it sucks for that 100 miles, my guess is $2.00 Most here picked up our Ferrari passion from electrics, the FX kind.
     
  20. Apple Sauce

    Apple Sauce Formula Junior

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    Not a hater, just pointing out that you car, the Leaf runs on coal and hydropower instead of just pure gasoline.
     
  21. M Baker

    M Baker Formula Junior

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    Pure electric cars have better range in the south where it's warmer. In the northwest it's colder - which is not good for battery life. They work fine in applications like what Dave is using it for - like a street legal golf cart. Electric is just another tangent in the life of cars. A significantly different source of power is the solution and it hasn't been invented yet
     
  22. Jonny Law

    Jonny Law F1 Rookie
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    Does anyone know if GM is going to release the Skateboard?
     
  23. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

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  24. Taurean Bull

    Taurean Bull Formula 3
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    Hmm, what about the other side of the equation that they are already collecting in taxes? In Seattle, if I read the code correctly, it's 9.8% S&U tax on the purchase of a vehicle. So, If a Leaf's equivalent is a Versa, that would cost 10k less, then that means they are already collecting another $980 just on the initial sale of the more expensive vehicle, no? It just never ends with Democrat money grabs. Geez.

    Dave, I agree with your points that it is just another tool in the garage, so why not, but speaking of "talking points", oh boy. Presidents have been talking about this for over 40 years, and nothing is done about it, except maybe create moratoriums and more off limits areas which decrease our own production, and force MORE reliance on the Saudis. We aren't in danger of peak oil, there's loads of it, and we capture all REAL pollutants (hint: CO2 isn't one - but we can leave that for another discussion). BTW, when you say the tech is "new", define "new". Electric cars? No.
     
  25. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

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    It just never ends with Democrat money grabs. Geez.


    It ends alright, just look at Detroit as one of the many examples of how. Currently, Detroit is giving houses away to city employees for less than $1,000.00 "IF" they are purchased in the city and the employee plans to live their (all done in an attempt to attract folks back into the lions den for dinner). Seattle is a long way from that situation, but it begins through incremental creep, Detroit’s situation took 35 years. Spending, giveaways and pet projects aren't partitioned on one side of the political fence.
     
  26. Taurean Bull

    Taurean Bull Formula 3
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    You are, of course, correct. I didn't qualify the statement with an opposing side of the aisle economic crap bag, but if it helps, I will state that I'm a Libertarian. :) I've actually written on incremental Socialism and "creep" toward Communism with it's many lovely facets. Maybe I'll publish it someday.
     
  27. jh355

    jh355 Formula Junior

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    Libertarian is the only camp to be from if your a self governed freedom loving person. All other systems liberate using violence and or threats of violence, Anarchy being the exception.


    Sieg Heil the Mises Institute;
    http://mises.org/
     
  28. Taurean Bull

    Taurean Bull Formula 3
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    Ah yes, I know the Mises Institute well. I really enjoy listening to Tom Woods.
     

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