Oil consumption breakthrough

In my original service manual page 55 states "Check engine oil every 300 mls. Carry out this operation with warm engine (140 to 150 F) waiting a few minutes after its stopping. The oil level must always result between the min and max marks on the dipstick". The manual also states somewhere that normal oil consumption is 1 litre per 2000 kms. That's about what I get with my reco'd motor. I'm a bit of a believer in the old adage 'when all else fails - read the instructions'.

 

a friend of mine's '81 308 GTSi (non QV) smoked a bit and even more at start-up, the car also used over a litre of oil every 500 km and seemed to loose oil even standing, maby evaporating ?

There was nothing else wrong with the engine but its 'old' and over 100k km.

He only replaced the valve seals and it starts now with almost no visible smoke and he says he only tops-up half a litre oil around every 1000 - 1500km.

 

This post makes my brain feel funny.
Have you read your owners manual?

 

Glassman, I think he meant to say, when checking the oil when car is cold, - the level is just above the full mark.

so when he checks after a drive it seems the oil level is low.

 

The 2Vi cars 80-82 were notorious for burning oil when new. Some received engine replacements under warranty and even some of those burned oil excessively.

 

I used to check my oil cold on my 77 but in order to do that I needed to establish full. So one day with not to much to do I ran the car for about 20 miles and brought it in on the lift and drained the oil and removed the filter. I let it drain over night. Then I put on a new filter and the correct amount of oil (9 L or 9 qt). I then started it up and ran it for 10 minutes and shut it down. Got up the next morning and checked the oil cold. Oil was about 1"+- over the full mark. I measured it and this became my reference for cold full. Took a hour ride and brought it home and shut it down. Checked oil per OM about 15-20 seconds after hot shut down. Oil was at the full mark on the stick. We all know that anywhere between the 2 marks is OK and if you check it cold and it is below the top mark then you will be about a qt. low when hot. That was my process and I'm stickin to it , hahaha.

 

As noted, a method that might be helpful is to check the oil hot as per the factory recommendations and fill to full (if the "full" point is where you actually plan to keep the oil - lot's of folks don't). Then let the engine sit overnight and check the stick cold. Make a mark with a file at the oil level and that is your full/cold reference. This is a common procedure in the marine transmission world (check oil hot, idling in neutral) and makes routine service/checking much easier.


Re using oil. Many older era engines "use" oil when the oil level is full and do not when the oil level is lower, to the point where it was essentially normal for folks to keep them a quart low. This occurs due to crankcase windage where oil at the top of the pan is swept into a mist due to the air turbulence created by the crankshaft. Lowering the oil level reduces the effect of the turbulence because it moves the surface further away from the bottom, of the crank''s sweep. NOTE - this has NOTHING to do with the crankshaft dipping into the oil which should never, ever happen. It's a result of the mini tornado that can be generated by the crankshaft and is the reason that windage trays were developed - some of which are more effective than others. The resulting excessive oil mist in the crankcase, it ends up being blown out through the crankcase vent system as well some being sucked into the combustion chamber via the valve seals/guides.

I don't know how the Ferrari 3x8 motors are designed re that but that could be a factor affecting the difference in oil consumption based on oil level.

 

The problem with leaving a 308 or 328 low is even when full they will starve in RH turns with pressure dropping to zero. When low he problem is very bad. I would never suggest that as a cure. It is so bad it has been SOP since the 70's to run them a quart over when used very hard or on a track.

The OP's problem almost certainly is a result of not following proper procedure in checking oil and constantly refilling to an incorrect level.

 

Interesting… and very valuable info. I would have thought Ferrari would have been better at transferring their racing knowledge to their street cars. I guess I would have thought wrong.

OTOH, perhaps Ferrari never intended that "racing improves the breed" concept to carryover to their "cheap cars." I doubt if any of their racing engines had that oiling concern…or cam belts

 

Hi Mike,

Just for the anecdote...
The 3 liter 60° V-12 they raced in Formula one from 1966 to 1969 was deficient in power ("that engine made the most beautiful of all sounds, but unfortunately had no steam" Chris Amon, the Scuderia team leader).
This was traced to a serious problem of oil recuperation in the sump, below the crankcase; scavenging pumps were not very efficient and there was always too much oil in that sump.
Chris Amon reports having made dozen of tests for this in Fiorano, to no avail (it must be said that he also says that the tests were "rather empirical", and that he never was convinced that they knew exactly how much oil should have theoretically be found in that sump...)
So yes, there was a transfer of racing technology...

Rgds

Their woes stopped in 1970 with the 180° "flat" V-12, sometimes (improperly) called the "Boxer" engine, which is probably still today one of the best and most successful engine they ever made. Chris Amon had left at the end of 1969, after three unsuccessfull years with the 60° V-12...

 

Bruno, thanks for the info,

I'd like to know which 3x8 engine was the best from 1975 to 1989, (first 308 towards last 328)

cheers

 

It was a problem known to them and why a dry sump version was produced. It was for Europe only and only in the carb years.

 

I hope you don't mind if I ask what is the proper procedure for the wet sump 3x8's? I've found the process in the owner's manual to produce variable results.

 

Dipstick design is one of the problems. When we did warranty claims for the oil burning on the 80-82 cars we were required to weigh the oil. The book says 140 or more degrees of oil temp and let sit a few minutes before checking. It was found that with the design of the cast aluminum handle on the dipstick, it is so close in diameter to the tube and has an O ring on it, it can actually push the oil down the tube away from the dipstick when it is inserted. I push in the stick, leave it 30 seconds or so and turn it around a couple of times to allow the oil to flow back into the tube.

 

I have found many variables to my oil readings. The latest is shift shaft seals.
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Why didn't Ferrari simply install a windage tray like what is available to us now?

from 97 to about 2011 I was tracking my QV 10-12 times a year (less toward the end) and I had a terrible time with the right turn zero psi issue - which is only made FAR worse if you use sticky track tires.

I installed an Accusump but it didn't help. I was going to remove it but I changed my mind and put a switch on it to open when I turn on my key so I can pre oil my engine a bit before start-up. Not sure if that even really helps much but it can't hurt.

When someone here started making those windage trays, I bought one and installed it right away. Problem 100% solved, in fact it works so well and is so simple it is really difficult to believe.

Why did Ferrari never bother?

 

Tommy that's a good question, why didn't Maranello thought of the windage tray? You know on my 76/77 Lancia Scorpion/MonteCarlo, the oil pan comes with windage tray and two trap doors stock.

 

I don't use engine oil anymore. I had all internal moving parts coated with a space-age lubricant developed at NASA called Slick "L"

 

I used the cold check method on my 308 for 15 years. IMO (not a pro wrench) but has the least amount of variables and when are you more certain about the amount of oil you have in your car than right after a change and dead cold the next day? Mark the stick and check it the same very time

Check the dipstick 2 minutes after shutdown running the car 5 minutes at 40* vs 2 hours at 100* you are going to get different results.

 

Yes.....the result of not reading the owners manual and using the correct procedure.
My 83 requires 15 minutes wait time to accurately take an oil level reading.
Read the manual that comes with your car. The manual also indicates that at operating temperature and at idle a low oil pressure reading is normal. Run 10-40 like I do, and you will be freaking out the first drive.

 

The car has a windage tray. That is a different part from that piece some people are making that is an addition to the pan baffles. I can give you a very long list of things they should do or should have done. Why didn't they do any of them?

 

Every car manual says more or less the same: the maximu allowed oil consumption is always very high, I would say "too high". A car that drinks 5 litres in 10000 km is a car that needs an engine overhaul, and even if they are just three liters too. Expecially if you drive it as a vintage car should be driven: 95% at low and mid RPM with just 5% or even less WOT use.

ciao

 

I seem to recall ( I could check the owners manual but I'm too lazy) that Ferrari said that acceptable oil consumption for a 3x8 is something like a quart in five or 600 miles, which is absolutely absurd. The Mopar 426 Hemi of the mid late-60's said a quart in 600 miles…an engine of over double the displacement and HP. Makes no sense that a 3 litre engine should be "allowed" to use that much oil. That makes me believe that factory tolerances were extremely wide, especially when it's noted that some engines actually used that much oil while others go 2000 miles+ without using any.

As noted, windage trays have nothing to do with oil being available in turns. That's an oil sump design/baffling issue. Windage trays simply keep the oil from being "pulled" up from the sump to form an oil cloud around the spinning crank.

 

True Mike, that's what the manual says, but...neither of my 328s need oil re-topping at all.
The GTB needed about half-a-litre every 3.000 kms (about a half a quart for 2.000 miles) at the beginning of ownership, but she does not need any at all today.

Oh, and I check oil exactly as said by the book: about every 500 kms (300 miles) and after having waited 15mn after engine shut-down.
Rgds