Oil/water cooling part failure?

Spoke with a 2000 360 owner and his shop about the failure of his oil/water heat exchanger....apparently the part can corrode allowing coolant into the transmission oil...causing a mess as you would imagine...costing him plenty to flush, over and over to get the muck out of the tranny, cooler and lines....anyone experience this?
I believe the part is on page 107 of the parts manual #32...how are you guys adding those pics to your posts btw?

 

A known failure also on 355 (same part as a 360). The 430 uses a different heat-exchanger but is also known to fail. Likely due to corrosion on the coolant side. Regular coolant and gearbox oil changes are the only way to reduce the chance of a failure and have any chance of catching the problem before serious damage is done.

Just what everyone was hoping for, another thing to worry about.
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Does Ferrari have a recommended replacement schedule?

 

Not that I'm aware of.

 

my friend just told me today his 2000 360 exchanger just went as well. They had to do 6 flushes. He strongly recommended changing it before you have problems.

 

Whatever it is, I doubt they recommend changing coolant every year. But I think annual changes would go a long way towards preventing this kind of failure as it ensures that the crucial anti-corrosion additives are kept at optimum. Could you get away with less frequent changes? Probably. But you change your engine and transmission oils every year anyway. Do it all at once.

 

On boats they recommend PM replacement on heat exchangers for the oil
and transmissions around every 5 years, in particular if salt water operated.

Even with fresh water operation 7-8 years is stretching it. Now salt water
is ofcourse 5X worse environment than cars with antifreeze and additives,
but it does bring up the question if your car is 10 plus year old, is it wise
to do at least a inspection of the heat exchanger, send to a radiator shop
for pressure test/boil out ?

 

Has anyone pulled one out of their car? I guess I should look up in the manual for the removal procedure...I am going to send my Capristo exhaust back to Germany when/if the weather ever gets cold this year out here in sunny calif. Thinking I could do it while the car was out of service.

 

Yes, there is a thread in the Technical forum where someone did replace theirs after it leaked.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/technical-q/355457-360-heat-exchanger-leak-gearbox-coolant.html

I'm considering having mine replaced at my next annual, which is still a ways off, because I had some coolant hose leaks this year and worry maybe they were an early warning of some other cooling system parts starting to need replacement. It sounds like the jury is out as to whether this part needs to be replaced preventatively or should be left in until it actually fails.

 

I asked my tech and he has heard of but never seen a failure. He looks after a lot of 360's (and 355's that share the part) and talked me out of just replacing mine for the sake of it.
Yes they have failed but what is the failure mechanism? Manufacture? Corrosion? fatigue? I'd now want to understand that before I swapped mine out for a new 'bad' one if you know what I mean.

The danger of these threads is that they create a panic and before you know it the parts are changed unnecessarily and then NLA/sat in people's stock piles.

Maybe it's time for one of the aftermarket guys to bring out an improved version.

 

I'm waiting until it fails/if it fails before I replace it on mine. It will be corrosion and corrosion alone that gets it. You can't predict when it or if it will fail.

to replace it as I see it will involve one of two ways after draining the coolant:
1) put your hands under the intake plenum and undo all the connections (doubtful)
2) remove the intake plenum and then take it out. I suspect you have to take this approach which will add at least 4-6 hours of labor to your bill in addition to a $500 part... which may or not fail... and THEN you're going to say "well while we're in there lets replace this and replace that.."

I'll wait till it fails, replace and flush.

 

It's possible that coolant electrolysis has something to do with it. Perhaps the exchanger design and/or material used leads to more ion movement electrically.

 

From memory, I think that was a theory on the other thread.

I don't know anything about that as a process but if it were to be the root-cause, how could you reduce/eliminate it?

 

there are photos in the thread above. The really bad blockage and buildup all appeared to be on the oil side of the exchanger, not the coolant side. The copper tubes all look quite clean and not corroded at all. But the actual holes weren't located, so who knows?

 

Googled my own question......change the coolant before it gets acidic and make sure all of your engine earthing is good.

I keep an eye on the coolant level/clarity as I'm under the engine lid most times the car is out.

 

Yes, definitely heard that ensuring the coolant level remains the same and if it drops with no visible leaks, then watch out and check the transmission oil.

 

Mine went a few years ago. The shop spent 24 hours of labor just to get everything cleaned out to start at ground zero. Took the clutch with it. They had to take the transmission and engine apart and flush and flush. They said the mixture had the consistency of river mud. You don't want to know how much this cost me.
Trust me, you DO NOT want to wait until it fails.

 

The "chocolate milk" syndrome that is a tell tale sign for BMW owners that a headgasket is blown.....

hopefully, someone will come up with an aftermarket replacement!

 

I have a salt water aquarium and so I make a lot of RO/DI water. For those of you who do not know what that is --- its absolutely pure water -- better than distilled. Would it behove me to take a few gallons to my indie mechanic next time I have a coolant service?
Alan

 

I don't think that is absolutely necessary.....

There are a couple of reasons vehicle coolings systems have 50/50 combination of water and coolant.

1) Water is actually the primary cooling ingredient and absorbs heat best as a liquid (another reason some of us use water/alcohol injection for more horsepower)
2) Coolant is mixed in with water to ensure that the water, does not freeze....hence, "antifreeze" and not boil since temperatures can exceed 100 degrees celcius/212 degrees fahrenheit

Coolant is extremely corrosive as is non-distilled water to aluminum.....if the coolant/water mixture isn't replaced frequently (every 2 years) you can start to have electrolysis occur, which is basically your aluminum bits start to deteriorate.

So, the bottom line, even if you used tap water (which I would never recommend) you would still be better if you replaced your coolant every 2 years, then if you didn't.

 

curious was the cooling system servicved every 2 years or yearly?

 

Yearly, but the failure was basically my fault. I took the overflow coolant tank off a few times to do some work (i.e. fixing the botched exhaust installation from the dealer, powder coating the tank, etc.) and I assumed that the system was self bleeding. Each time I R/R'd the tank, I induced a little more air into the lines. Consequently, I overheated the car a couple of times. It didn't hurt the engine, but it did stress the intercooler out to the point where it cracked internally. This should make some of you guys feel better, but I'm just saying that if your car has high miles, it wouldn't be a bad idea to replace the unit.

 

This is a known problem, but perhaps not a super common one... yet.

I only know this because mine let go over the summer and I did some research. I found a few here on f-chat that experienced it. Also a couple vendors offering some alternate solutions to this "design flaw".

In the end, yeah it's a mess. Several flushes of the cooling system and I doubt you will ever get all the oil out completely. The far more serious problem is coolant getting into the gear box. I had several quarts of coolant sitting in my box and just imagine how much the gears wouldn't like sitting in a bunch of hot coolant as you are belting down the road.

If you are running the factory part, the trick to avoid severe damage to the box is catching it right when it lets go (assuming it's not a slow leaker) and NOT drive the car until it can be fixed. In my case, the dealer said I was lucky and didn't experience any noticeable damage but I won't be convinced until I log a lot more miles on the car. YMMV.

 

Ro and distilled have the same specs...less than 10 ppm of TDS so yes that is a good choice...

 

I wouldn't change this as a matter of course, rather use annual coolant and transaxle oil changes to prolong the life.

However, if you need to take the intake manifold off for any reason (such as for the gaskets) the it'll be worth changing it out as the extra cost will be minimal.