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ok, tell me why

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by ross, Mar 13, 2008.

  1. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    everybody values 365gtb's higher than 512bb, and then higher than 512 bbi. i dont fully understand this.
    yes the 365 has ('had' actually coz by now they are all about 100bhp or more down) 380bhp, vs the 512bb at 360 and the bbi's 340. but surely at this semi geriatric stage, this is of little relevance.
    they all look very similar, but imho the bbi looks best. the 365 looks a little ungainly frankly.
    in all the other model runs, the last one in the series is usually the most advanced and therefore valued higher.

    so what gives?
     
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  3. sparta49

    sparta49 F1 Veteran
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    Mar 3, 2001
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    nostalgia for carbs
     
  4. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Earliest, rarest, no bumpers, six tailpipes! And tailights..

    Despite raw HP numbers IIRC it's also the quickest off the line due to final drive ratios....

    Others more knowledgable will chime in but based upon rarity as the major factor, IMO

    I'd pick a carbed 512, myself.......:D
     
  5. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

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  6. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Rarest and first variation, the orignal vision I suppose but it has its problems like any new model. The BBi is valued 2nd then carbed BB last for some reason. I prefer the BBi myself as well, the engine looks fantastic compared to a carbed car. The 512 to me looks better with the cosmetic improvements. Its fact that the 512 was an improvement over the 365BB in many ways, why its more valuable is the same thinking that puts a dino on the moon price-wise.
     
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  8. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    it is rare, compared to the subsequent two. but the reason it was rare is that it was considered flawed and in need of improvement. the testarossa lead to the 512tr, the 348 lead to the 355, the 360 to the 430, the 456 to the 456m, the 275 gtb to the 275 gtb4, etc etc. and in all of these series, the later cars were/are more valued...
     
  9. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Different era, the 365 seems to me to be stuck back with the daytona and other classic ferraris. The injected car has a much newer image sort of caught between the original 365BB and the dated TR. I agree the 512 is a better car all the way and a better value plus its still hand made.....the last hand made ferrari in the traditional sense. So for me the best of both worlds.
     
  10. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    But arguably the Boxer led to the TR, and objectively the TR is a better car. Yet the Boxer is more highly valued.

    Personally, I can understand why the 365 would be worth a little more, and historically all the Boxer models have been worth more or less the same. So it's interesting that all of a sudden, one of the models is worth more than the other two.

    Ultimately, I think it comes down to collectibility. If you want to buy a Boxer to drive, you're probably better off getting a 512, but if you want to have bragging rights and look at it in your garage, the 365 is better. I guess we now know which kind of buyer is more prevalent these days.

     
  11. Murph

    Murph Formula 3
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    365, 512bb, 512bbi, hell it doesn't matter which one, Joe public thinks they are all 308s anyways.
     
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  13. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I have never driven one (and probably never will cause I don't fit), but the 365 Boxers are more "Enzo" than "Fiat." Get Nathan's boxer's book, and you will understand that the 365 is arguably one of the last Ferraris to have any trace of "race on Sunday and sell on Monday." (The other is the 288 GTO.) The motor can trace its dna all the way back to the 60s. The entire car simply gives that feel that it is barely street legal, which happens to be true.

    Plus, there is always the allure of the first. The last is the 512M.

    Dale
     
  14. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

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    Production count:
    Testas: 7177
    512TR: 2200
    F512M: 500

    512TR is still rarer. Significantly more powerful motor, too. HP numbers sell.

    348 on up, you're getting into modern car territory. The classic/vintage premium hasn't kicked in yet. For those models it's still about HP and frankly interior amenities.
     
  15. GaryReed

    GaryReed F1 Rookie
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    365s are rarer and "raw"er.

    365- 387
    BB512- 929
    BB512i - 1,007
     
  16. wlanast

    wlanast Formula 3
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    I can't say for sure, but I don't seem to remember that when the 365 Boxer came out is was considered "flawed." I do remember that it received accolades both for design and performance, and here in the US we couldn't wait to get one to check out the performance ourselves. For the first several years even, we only knew of the car second hand from European car mags or the factory. Of course, the later iterations would improve on the design as is typical for later generation cars. So in hindsight, it could and would be considered flawed in some respects.

    But from someone who would love to own one, 365s have some unique qualities that offset the downsides, in my mind anyway. Externally, the rawness and purity of the design are a big plus. It was produced in close to 1/3 of the numbers of the later models, under that ''magic" number of 400. And it has 6 tail lights and 6 tail pipes that let you know what just passed you by.

    I wouldn't kick it out of the garage... and would pay more for it than the other Boxers. And ask anyone who owns one, it begs to be driven and not stashed under a cover.
     
  17. Arvin Grajau

    Arvin Grajau Five Time F1 World Champ

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    carb 512 for me.
     
  18. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3

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    The observation of value inversely related to refinements can be seen in the 206 versus the 246 Dino.

    Jim S.
     
  19. shill288

    shill288 Formula Junior

    Feb 24, 2005
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    In California the 365BB does not have to be smogged. (Pre-1976 cars are exempt.) The 512s, unfortunately, do. It's a real hassle and if the car just barely passes, you have to smog it ever year, not just every other year. Lots of 355 and 360 owners living in ehanced smog zones (Bay Area, LA, etc.) found that one the hard way.

    But, with the 365, you just raise your finger to the whole smog issue.

    Smog issues aside, if I didn't live in California, a carb 512BB would have my name on it.

    Steve
     
  20. aleventhal

    aleventhal Formula Junior

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    One BIG factor is event eligibility. While a 365BB will never be allowed on the Mille Miglia or on the lawn at Pebble, it *IS* eligible for many US Vintage events (New England 1000, etc.) and some european events (Tour Auto) that will not admit a 512BB or BBi. This helps value in a big way.

    A
     
  21. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

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    Why can't the 365BB do the MM or Pebble?
     
  22. Arvin Grajau

    Arvin Grajau Five Time F1 World Champ

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    good point.
     
  23. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie

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    #20 geno berns, Mar 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have both cars, the injected 512 BB and the carbed 365 BB. I like both cars for their own attributes. The 365 has a more vintage feel. It has a more minimalistic design and the recognizable triple tail and exhaust pipes I love. As far as the driving experience, the car drives way different than an injected car. The car gets you much more involved than the 512i, feels faster and sounds absolutely incredible. As far as value, it’s rarer than the 512. Also consider that there are much fewer available in the US and that will effect value. The Symbolic 365 BB sold a few days ago in one week for full asking price of $195K with four back up offers. Supply and demand is at work here. Gene
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  24. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie

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  25. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    beautiful.

    to have both to drive back to back, must be a cherished experience.
     
  26. buckminster

    buckminster Formula Junior

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    That is one sweet ride!
     
  27. aleventhal

    aleventhal Formula Junior

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    Too new - Mille Miglie is only open to cars old enough to have run it when they were new, etc.

    A
     
  28. Fontana

    Fontana Karting

    Dec 30, 2006
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    I have heard that the 365 was flawed when new but I cannot see what the big deal is. I have heard that the nose lifts at high speed but who is really going to push the car that hard on public roads anyhow. Also, I have heard that they overheat, they have a huge radiator like a 512 so I am not sure why they ever overheated more than a Daytona or a 512.
    You want to know a secret about a Flawed car with high value, have a look at a Lambo Miura. Common oil in the engine trans, terrible brakes, chassis designed and built by pre-schoolers... The Muira is such a killer car to drive and trading at around $450K!!

    The 365BB is the best of the BB series for raw and stunning performance. It is like the comparison of the 275 engine and the 330 engine. Sure the 330 has more low end torque, more power but it is not as exciting and high revving as the 275. The 365BB engine just seems more like a race engine and the car feels lighter and more sporty. Similar to a 206/246GT, the 206 is a totally different car.
     

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