Optimum setting for Electromotive in QV

Hi Everyone,

Am kinda side-stepping here in removing the stock system for the Electromotive system from Fchat sponsor Nick Forza. Anyone know the curve for a Euro 1985 308GTS QV? Is it 32 to 34 degrees? Also will be putting in new spark plugs and wondering what the gap should be considering this system puts out a lot more power.

Anything else i may have misses or advice you feel i should know is always appreciated.

 

32 to 34 degrees at wot by about 3300 rpm has been my experience.

Sounds great - good luck!

 

Many thanks for the info!!!

Anyone have the STOCK curve data?

Plan to do some dyno tuning of course, though all data from others here is much appreciated.

 

Sorry for a little mess, but here are the 3.2 Marelli advance curves with two Mallory curves superimposed from a previous post. Each of the black lines is the MArrelli advance cuve for different levels of manifold pressure as shown on the graph..
I set my mallory curves in red for optimum power (and safety) at WOT.

The 3.0 qv curves are similar, and should be in the owner's manual.
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Here are the QV curves from the Euro OM #248-82, looks a bit different, 10-14 degrees up to ~1200 rpm, rising to above around 32-34 at ~4000, then dropping back to ~30 degrees.

Wonder if they had better data to base the 328 engine's curves on?
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Gap plugs at .035 run one heat range cooler. I use Champion gold 2415 they are fantastic with the HPX or XDI set up. Make sure that you keep the 8,000 rpm knob at -2, do not advance the 8,000 rpm knob! I have set up these units on a dyno & typical set ups have been the same. I pre set the unit & usually the only adjustment that is needed is the inital advance at idle.
Enjoy!

Steve, I have another "you must have item" its our windage tray modification that has been track tested for the last 2 years down under. I will do a thread on it with a few pics.

 

When reading these Marelli charts it is important to follow which MAP level you are interested in. In Verell's good copy as well as mine, the lines are given as a deltaP, or DIFFERENCE from ambient pressure- that is how the machine thinks. So, the lower numbers are more compatable with WOT (less different from the ambient pressure), and do hold the 32 degrees advance UNDER LOAD at higher rpm. Note at lower load (higher delta P) the advance can be safely taken quite high for good economical running. This is why computers are good.

Verell, I've been told that the qv and 3.2 combustion chambers and flamefronts are almost identical, so I would tend to go with the 32-34 degrees at WOT (minimal delta P). This bears out on my dynos, keeping in mind I keep mine a bit fat under load.(12 - 13)

 

Many thanks snj5, Verell and Nick. Am waiting for the unit to arrive and looks like today i will be buying new spark plugs...

 

Nick,
From my initial reading of the Electromotive literature, it appears that:

1) with the standard Ferrari Kit, only one advance curve is used. ie: the curve doesn't change with load, just engine RPM.

2) However, with the MAP sensor, you can offset the curve by a fixed advance depending on manifold pressure. In effect giving a higher vacuum/economy curve, and a lower vacuum/performance curve.

Is my interpretation correct?

Russ,
Which is your recommended curve, the 'New Curve'? or the old curve which gave the performance numbers in red?

 

Verell, many thanks for the reference and could not find the curves in the book the first time i looked last week, see them now on page 76...

As i see it, at WOT on the track at high speeds the advance goes down to 25 (probably to help emissions and not ping releated). The Electromotive will allow for whatever advance i choose. As an example, let us say we go with 32 to be on the safe side of a heat-soaked engine. This appears to allow for more power at the top end versus stock setting of 25 advance. The 'problem' i have been experiencing and has become more noticeable is a lack of engine push when going over 125mph.

i think this situation began after the last major service as she was fine to over 135mph before the major service. So perhaps the PO figured out a solution or the engine was better 'tuned' and the engine was set back to stock during the major service? This slowness at upper speeds, especially when in 5th gear, has been becoming more obvious as my increased track experience (and upgraded brakes) makes me feel more calm when achieving very high speeds. Achieving only 135mph seems to be tops at the back straight of Watkins Glen and 135mph seems to be max and she just sits around that speed while i still have a good amount of straight track remaining and, of course, WOT hoping to go faster

So guess what i am saying in a long-winded way is, looks like upping the advance to 32 or so will bring back the 'lost' power and keep it sane to avoid pinging.

Does the above sound 'right' to you? Am just tired of the car lagging after 125mph or so in 5th gear when she is getting LOTS of air when i know she has more push in 4th, and of course loads of good push in 3rd gear.

 

the graphic shown was made prior to the dyno, and no power improvement was found and it didn't sound as good, so I backed it back down to the first curve (similar to stock wot) for safety. The qv combustion flamefront is quite efficient and Ferrari had already figured that out ahead of me, but I had to prove it to myself...

 

Steven,
Have you compared Ricks's 328 curve with the settings Nick supplied(which I don't have)?

W/o being to reference Nick's data & experience, I tend to agree with your thinking & rick's 328 curve. I'd still recommend getting dyno data so you have 'before ' and 'after' results.

Sorry about the low quality of the graph. I tried to clip the much better quality copy of the curve from the Euro OM .PDF I downloaded from Ferrari.uk, but it's protected somehow.

Nick,
I couldn't find your recommended settings in any of the documentation you supplied Steven. Suggest adding it in someplace appropriate, maybe in your 'welcome' document.

 

Nick said he dyno-tested his curves, though after the install will go to Ayer and do some dyno testing/tweaking. BTW, just got off the phone with Nick... awesome guy and a HUGE asset to the Ferrari community!!!

Thanks, but wanted to run my thinking by you as you are much more versed and wiser than i in these things.

Below PDF is the owners manual extract Always glad to help when i can.
View attachment Pages from 308QV_euro_owners.pdf

 

I don't want to hijack...but does anyone happen to have an "optimum" curve for a USA '78 308 with an older HPV-1? IIRC, the initial setting is about 10 degrees with the 3000rpm setting maxed out at 25 degrees. I don't recall where the 8000rpm setting is at.

Thanks

 

I've experimented quite a bit with ignition timing / electromotive settings. over the last 3 years. If you are using Wintec3 (or at least have the software), I'll send you my .bin file so you can take a look. I am running EFI, near open exhaust, and other mods so some of the settings may not be of value to you but you'll get the general picture.

 

Ok, I will try to answer a few questions, I have set up 308’s on a dyno with the Electromotive systems & have sold over 100 of these systems world wide for the Ferrari application, typical settings are as follows, initial advance ON THE UNIT is usually set at 8-14 deg (it depends on the car & how it is set up) When I send a unit out, its set at 12 according to the knob, every one I have sent out with these settings always starts. Keep in mind that the numbers are not absolutely accurate on the actual unit, but they are very close, you check with a voltmeter on the XDI, as far as the 3000 advance, you can max it out, no problem I have run my cars at that setting even with the air temp at 95 deg, no issues. The 8,000-RPM should typically be set at -2 deg. Keep in mind I have a 170,000 + mile 308 test bed car with an HPV1 and have put my cars through various tests & advance curves etc in daily driving conditions from snow, yes snow to 95 deg heat where I live & I can speak from experience on these settings.

These are good starting figures, you then can fool the system by actually moving the trigger wheel to the trailing edge of the 12th tooth or even the 10 tooth, depending on cams, carbs jets, how fat the K jet is etc. etc. If you wish to burn up dyno time & see if you can squeeze out 2-6 hp more, go for it, its fun! My pre sets work very well for 99% of my clients. It is a simple & a reliable system.

The Ferrari ignition advance settings are conservative for all sorts of possible adverse conditions in a production car, my settings are for Ferrari enthusiasts who I now will run premium fuel & maintain their cars to the highest standards with the correct heat range plugs.

In my experience & opinion, I do not see the need to run a map sensor with a XDI, HPV1 OR HPX on a 308 for a high performance set up, especially in Steve R’s situation. These advance settings only apply to the systems that I am talking about in the above paragraphs, they do not include TEC2, TEC3 or new TEC3R set ups.

Paul, how is your TEC3 car running?, did you do anymore mapping for the upper end for your engine?

 

Nic,

I've just completed a total engine/trans rebuild and hopefully will be firing up the car this weekend. Last year, I spent some time on the dyno and dialed in the Tec3. Based on the condition of the engine, the car ran very well - all the way up through 7700 (where I redlined the engine). The old engine was rather tired, with compression down to about 140 in the front bank, leak down test at 20% +, and an asortment of other ailments that makes me wonder how the car ran at all.

I expect to be doing quite a bit of changes to the control file once I get on the road and then some fine tuning at the dyno. I'll keep you posted.

 

Thanks for the response Nick. Sounds like I'm right in the ballpark, but I'm going to double check it when I can.

Hank

 

Henry, your welcome, Paul congrats on your new engine & transaxle rebuild, wish you the all the best on start up & mapping.