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Orders ACROSS different teams??? ***SPOILERS***

Discussion in 'F1' started by zippyslug31, Nov 15, 2010.

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  1. zippyslug31

    zippyslug31 Formula 3

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    #1 zippyslug31, Nov 15, 2010
    In Abu Dhabi at one point Webber was behind Buemi and the BBC made a comment stating that there were likely furious calls being made to Red Bull corporate. Shortly thereafter Buemi does not hide the fact that he lets Webber through... and, mind you, this was for position.

    Yeah I know how the world goes 'round, Red Bull names plastered all over both team's cars and they pay the bills for both, but if this really is the way things work then the Ferrari Hockenheim incident is nothing by comparison.

    What's next, will -insert any corporate name here- simply buy all the teams and select which one they want to win?

    How can this be ok by the FIA?
    Am I simply mistaken by the way I saw this go down?
     
  2. DGS

    DGS Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #2 DGS, Nov 15, 2010
    Alguersuari, actually.

    Interesting, as Jaime had the top qualifying speed trap time (317.6) and Webber had the 21st fastest (311.5).
    And then the STR held off Massa, who had the 11th fastest (313.2).

    While Petrov (3rd fastest: 316.2) held off Alonso (13th fastest: 312.9).

    But while STR carries Red Bull livery, they're also running a Ferrari engine. ;)
    (Which didn't keep them from punting Massa into the weeds a couple of times, this year, when he tried to get past.)
     
  3. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    #3 RP, Nov 15, 2010
    Despite the conspiracy (not), Webber was faster than Alguersuari/Buemi, whichever. If he did not let him through whcih was the right thing to do, that little blue flag with the yellow stripe probably would have made the point.

    At the end of the day, it did not win Webber the WDC.
     
  4. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #4 Fast_ian, Nov 15, 2010
    Yes. (IMO)

    I didn't even see that coverage/comment, but come on - These conspiracy theories are getting ridiculous! I'm pretty sure it was a joke - That they happen to be sponsored by the same guys gave the talking heads "grist for the mill". Did they expect anyone to take said comments seriously? I think not......

    Did Jamie let him by "easily" - Sure - Happens all the time when the lead driver *knows* he's slower [MS & Nico, Brazil (?) springs to mind] He's a rookie, and certainly doesn't want to be remembered as the guy that "ruined Marks chances". *Everyone* knows MW was faster and in the hunt.

    Its this that makes Petrovs stonewalling of FA even more impressive to me......

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  5. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #5 Fast_ian, Nov 15, 2010
    Sorry, wrong:

    1 - There is no such flag in F1.
    2 - Any skilled course worker (flag man) will only ever wave the blue at a backmarker (ie, one who is about to be lapped.) You don't really believe the flag workers think, "oh, he's in 5th but the guy in 6th is quicker, so I'll wave my flag!" do you?

    :)

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  6. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #6 PSk, Nov 15, 2010
    +1

    But some might. Technically speaking you are supposed to show the blue flag if there looks like a pass might happen, so the front driver is aware ... this is not at all the same as the blue flag use for lapping, and thus you will not get penalised if you are 5th'ed and 6th place is close and you get the blue flag all race long.

    I used to be a flag marshall for club racing ...
    Pete
     
  7. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #7 SRT Mike, Nov 15, 2010
    I don't think Alguersuari let Webber through... Webber put himself in a position to challenge for the corner and Jaime at that point had to decide how hard to fight. He elected not to contest the pass to the point where it caused a crash.

    But if it was a cross-team order, then why wouldn't he get out of the way right away? Why hold up Webber for a few laps? Also, radio transmissions are broadcast, so if there was a message to Jaime to move over, the world would know.

    How could they have gotten a message to Jaime? They couldn't.
     
  8. zippyslug31

    zippyslug31 Formula 3

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    #8 zippyslug31, Nov 15, 2010
    Doh! Yup, you guys are correct. :D

    Guess I should have stipulated that this wasn't a complaint that driver X didn't win.... was just stating that this appeared to be a bit of cross-team witchcraft.

    Personally, I'm not losing sleep that Webber didn't win; that's another topic.

    Since you didn't see their coverage, here's a quote from Martin Brundle (whom I think is not your typical spin doctor, but a highly regarded ex-driver):
    Lap 14, a quote of Martin Brundle: "Webber is tucked up behind Alguersuari in the sister Toro Rosso who needs a bit of corporate 'speak down' on the radio to get out of the way because traffic is going to absolutely wreck Mark Webber's race now."
    A few seconds later Webber tries to over-take in the corner but can't because JA is defending the move; looked very much like two drivers legitimately fighting for position.
    About a minute later in the BBC broadcast, Webber still behind Alguersuari, Martin Brundle says: "Now there must be radio calls going between the Toro Rosso and the Red Bull teams who are paid by... the money comes out of the same bank account effectively. Surely Alguersuari will release Webber. There's no blue flags; he's not obliged to by regulation."

    Soon after on the straight, Alguersuari pulls well off onto the blue shoulder to let Webber through, Martin Brundle then says something to the effect of "that's why you spend a few hundred million to have extra cars out there".

    Doesn't come across as a "joke" to me, but an informed individual who knows how this sort of thing works.

    The corner is not where the pass occurred. In fact Webber could not complete the pass in the corner since Alguersuari defended..... until the straight when he clearly pulls off onto the blue shoulder.

    It looks like there was some time getting a message to JA, then he complied. And by "message" lets be honest, that could consist of anything as vague as "please set to blue 5 Q" or something as idiotic as "he is faster than you... can you confirm you understood this message". ;)
    It wouldn't be difficult to "disguise" any message.
     
  9. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #9 SRT Mike, Nov 15, 2010
    But there would be no way to know what situations may arise... so unless RBR went up and down the whole grid, they would never know which driver to talk to ahead of time and what instructions to give.

    It's like Glock @ Brazil in '08 when people accused him of letting Lewis by... there's just no way to get these instructions to the driver because the transmissions are public. The FIA would crack down on that sort of thing hard. Wait, who am I kidding? We have a precedent... you are allowed to cheat and transmit blatant team orders, the price for that is $100k.

    Forget I said anything :D
     
  10. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    #10 bigodino, Nov 16, 2010
    Accurate desciption of what happened. Algusuari clearly moved over, evne though for position. Then he proceeds to fend off Massa.
    Clearly team orders. Anyone who denies this is in denial himself.
    But, it comes with the game, allthough this does get a bit shady when it involves more than one team.
     
  11. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
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    #11 bigodino, Nov 16, 2010
    p.s. something similar happened in 1997, when McLaren was allowed to win and in that way they helped Villeneuve to win (something like that, don't recall the exact details).
     
  12. Craigy

    Craigy Formula 3

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    #12 Craigy, Nov 16, 2010
    I suppose they keep bringing up the idea of a three car team since nobody would ever do any favors for Ferrari.
     
  13. zippyslug31

    zippyslug31 Formula 3

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    #13 zippyslug31, Nov 16, 2010
    Right. This is where I'm seeing the exception to the rule of "he just got out of the way for a faster car".

    The whole thing looked funny to me.
     
  14. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    #14 Far Out, Nov 16, 2010
    Alguersuari was the reason Webber couldn't pass Alonso. How anyone can construct a team order conspiracy here is beyond me...
     
  15. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

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    #15 RP, Nov 16, 2010
    Yes you are correct, no stripe, brain fade. As for the corner workers showing the flag, probably not, the point I obviously did not make was that in reality nothing would happen. Otherwise there would have been a flag or whatever for Petrov v Alonso, etc.
     
  16. zippyslug31

    zippyslug31 Formula 3

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    #16 zippyslug31, Nov 16, 2010
    Who said Red Bull was doing this solely for Webber's benefit? Since Webber was ultimately stuck back there too, then it seems at least plausible that Toro Rosso could have been keeping Alonso from getting further up thus helping Vettel.
     
  17. Far Out

    Far Out F1 Veteran

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    #17 Far Out, Nov 17, 2010
    Had they wanted to help Vettel with their proposed control over Alguersuari, they'd have him make way for Webber, so Webber could stay ahead of Alonso. Webber being behind Alonso was completely useless for the team.
     
  18. Etcetera

    Etcetera Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 Etcetera, Nov 17, 2010
    WHOA. This same thing happened to me. I was in front of Webber while boarding a plane. I got a call from none other than Dietrich himself telling me to let Webber past.

    Damn these team orders.

    Just damn them to hell!
     

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