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Other reasons FOTA want a new series are.....?

Discussion in 'F1' started by F1Ace, Jun 22, 2009.

  1. F1Ace

    F1Ace F1 Rookie

    Mar 15, 2004
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    Wes
    I find the prospect of a new series, run more or less by the manufacturers quite intriguing.
    It seems to me it would be more of a reflection of what the teams want, and what rules they
    are prepared to race under. So I am thinking that the current issue isn't the first thing to
    come up, nor the only FOTA complaint to be addressed by creating a new series.

    I haven't been reading every article on F1 over the past year, so can people just highlight
    some of the changes or rules that the FIA has implemented in the past few years that the
    Manufacturers didn't like, and would likely change for their series?

    How did the teams feel about the current aerodynamic regulations, KERS, etc.?

    How would a FOTA series rule book look different?

    Thanks!
    Wes
     
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  3. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I think the main issue is rules stability and governance.

    First, governance. So you wouldn't see a travesty like you did before where McLaren are fined a ridiculous amount of money, while other teams who did the same (and worse) were let off. Nor would you see situations like the one that earned Honda a temporary race ban for doing what all the other teams were also doing. Nor would you see idiotic rules on things like the Renault Mass Damper. It would be consistent.

    Second, stability. The rules would likely change less over time. So instead of lots of big things like refueling, tires, aero, engines, qualifying, gearboxes, KERS, tire warmers, electronics and such coming and going on a lightning quick basis, they would come into use more slowly, and would fade out of use more slowly.

    You would likely see less major shake-ups in the running order, because instead of everying coming up with wholly new cars, they would be making evolutionary changes. IMO this would be a good thing, because while it has been nice to see Brawn and RBR at the front, it's really the same $h!t, different day... instead of Ferrari and McLaren running way ahead, it's still 2 teams, just different teams.

    I also think that stability in the rules allows you to change one element at a time in a very careful way and measure the results. This means that passing could legitimately be worked on (i.e. fostering more of it). The way PornoMax runs things, it's impossible to know what the results will be because so much gets changed, then gets changed again the following year. With rules stability, you can monitor what is sub-optimal, and make rules that are fair for every comepetitor that address that specific issue.
     
  4. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Yes I go along with that, top and bottom of it remove Mosley Job done. Bernie has kept him in business for this length of time because it served his purposes, now he is destorying his cash cow and the world and the teams have spoken, Bernie cannot be that deaf yet..the sound is thunderous ...I can't see him surviving beyond October.
     
  5. DGS

    DGS Four Time F1 World Champ

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    A less manufacturer hostile environment.

    Honda doesn't really look silly for dropping out of F1. The "engine freeze" stuck them building a spec engine that wasn't competitive. They already make the spec engines for Indycar. What do they need with building a losing engine for F1?

    Through most F1 seasons, competitive advantage doesn't last: the teams work to address their shortcomings and catch up with the front runners. But that was F1, not what they're making now.

    Between engine freezes, multi-race engines, half-season gearboxes, testing bans, budget caps, etc, etc, etc., FOM is moving towards a spec series with a 17 race "parc ferme".

    But that means that the season is decided at the first race --- other than micromanagement of results to make "suspense".

    There is less and less reason for manufacturers to be involved in this increasingly spec series. And no reason to claim that it's the "pinnacle of motorsports".

    Look at Indycar (or CART) -- how many car makers were fielding entries?

    Look at the teams BernieMax are trying to add: not a manufacturer in the lot.

    The united FOTA teams include five manufacturers. Plus Red Bull who is already involved in other racing, but runs F1 to play with the big boys ;). Plus Brawn, who has seen F1 both from Benneton and Ferrari ... and who saw the Honda decision from the inside, rather than speculating after the fact from the outside.

    The two cross-overs are cash-strapped privateer teams.

    The direction FOM is taking F1 is making F1 just a middle east version of Indycar.
    ... With no point for F1 to return to N.America, just to compete with another spec series.

    There's no way to make the "pinnacle of motorsports" fit a Wal-Mart budget.
     
  6. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

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    I assume the FOTA knows that if it bases any new racing series in Europe that it will also be controlled by the FIA International Sporting Regulations which is defacto Max Mosley.
     
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  8. Modeler

    Modeler F1 Veteran

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    Imagine if even half the money wasted through CVC went to support grass roots initiatives, as Club football does. Very similar income streams and volume.
    All the young drivers who'd get a chance etc.

    Many reasons beyond FOTA self interest exist.
     
  9. F1Ace

    F1Ace F1 Rookie

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    Great nickname...haha.

    It must just drive the engineers absolutely insane the way things are crunched down now.
    Trying to do all their off season testing in a matter of hours. I read an article recently
    about how it's done and it's just too compressed. I bet the engineers are as much behind
    a change as anyone else.

    But Max and Bernie are crazy. They are going to run their FIA into the ground now. New tracks
    were created to thrive off of the F1 curcuit to now find it gutted. Can you imagine being an
    investor in one of those curcuits? Yikes!

    They seem to have lost touch with the teams, who really should be heavily involved in
    how they want to compete with each other, rather than waiting for Muhammed to come
    down from the mountain with the latest book of rules.

    I also just read that the teams are not happy with their share of the loot, so there's another
    issue which would be resolved in a new series.

    Personally, I can't wait to see another series, but that sure makes this title fight rather empty.

    Wes
     
  10. iwanna860monza

    iwanna860monza Karting

    Sep 19, 2004
    237
    Not necessarily, the new organisation could set up their own track inspection committee and have a similar set of safety rules for each circuit, and then just have it written into their hosting contract that this is what will happen. The event(s) do not NEED to be FIA sanctioned, and considering the way the FIA is run, thank god for that.

    The issue will be where BE has a cast iron contract with a circuit, for instance if he decides to stick with the FIA, he can go to any of the current A grade circuits and demand they sign a new contract with the FIA/ FOM/ whomever he chooses. In exchange BE can then promise them first rights for an FIA/FOM/whatever race IF A SPOT ON THE CALENDAR SHOULD BECOME AVAILABLE. On the other hand when you look at Mercedes Benz, Ferrari, Renault, BMW etc. and think of the clout, money and abaility to do whatever the hell they want to do, well it doesnt take long to figure out it will be war. BUT I still think the manufacturers will win. BE & PornoMax have no clout outside of Motor Racing, those companies with turnovers in the multi billions have clout in all sorts of businesses and within governments.

    IMHO

    Timmmmmmmmmy
     
  11. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    WRONG.


    The FIA may be required to sanction the race, but the rules would be whatever the charter of the series provided for.

    It doesn't need to be under the FIA... if that were the case, MotoGP and LeMans would be under the FIA, except they aren't, so obviously it's not the case.
     
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  13. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    A quote I read :
    FOTA needs a sanctioning body and would be quite entitled to ask the American Automobile Association if it would like be run the AAA Formula 1 World Championship. No-one owns the rights to that. The FIA might then decide to expel the AAA but in doing so it would wipe out 50% of it’s membership as the AAA is a huge club.
     
  14. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
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    +1
    There is nothing that says in order to hold a motor race you need the FIA involved. [No doubt their involvement makes getting permits etc a little "easier", but that's not the point when Ferrari/BMW/Merc et al are involved.]

    IMHO

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  15. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Why?....

    Seriously, and this has been mentioned before, the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL (at least) don't have a "sanctioning body" and they seem to do OK - UEFA, FIFA and the FA are all examples of "successful" sanctioning bodies that also do ok, but both models can work IMHO.

    Having said all that, as I posted elsewhere, Ross seems to want an "under control" FIA running the series - For good reason IMHO - It buys legitimacy and continuancy that "pirates" don't have.......

    Again, +1. Trouble is, the AAA (with what, 100MM members?) gets the same vote as Sengala that has two cars and a cab - WTF? :D

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  16. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Ross Brawn made a comment the other day where he said the FIA were required to sanction any legitimate motor racing series that wanted to form. The way he put it, if FOTA starts their own series, Max would be unable to refuse to sanction it. Ross went on to say that they would of course be able to set up their own rules and structure, but that the administration 'stuff' (like provide track marshalls, insurance, etc) would likely fall under the FIA.

    I'll have to try to find the quote later, but it was quite funny... Ross said it in a very matter-of-fact way, but it was clear he was sort of saying FU to the FIA, since they may lose the war over keeping the teams in F1, AND may be required to get on their knees and accept the FOTA teams as the boss of the new series, with the FIA being a useful partner for mundane necessities of holding a race.
     
  17. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    IMO, FIA is suppose to work for the Formula One teams. They are suppose to help negotiate, mediate and be the neutral party that can iron out the differences within the F1 organization. They are not suppose to make up their own rules or make major rule changes without having the majority of the F1 teams' consent first. Max, Bernie and FIA had allowed themself to lose sight of what F1 is really all about and became disillusioned with their own ego and greed.
     
  18. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I found the quote from Ross Brawn...

    Yup you're right... the FIA is an organization that has power only because various countries choose to recognize them. Some countries do have laws that say any official racing must be sanctioned by some club, and some of those clubs fall under the FIA. For example, in Iceland, any racing events must be sanctioned by the national club, and the national club is a member club of the FIA. But really, what is the FIA's power over those clubs? Ultimately, all they could really do is expel the club from FIA membership.

    It was also mentioned before that other series fall under the banner of the FIA such as NASCAR and IRL... that's not really accurate... those clubs don't come underneath the FIA so much as they work with them to an end. Max's authority is only existant because he has a critical mass of people who listen to him. A very large chunk of that is going to disappear if/when he loses FOTA and therefore F1. And all the new teams would have to do is get some other sanctioning body to support them and they would be good to go. ACO (I think it's them) that run LeMans is an option, as are many others.

    But to parkerfe's point that if they leave, they are still under the FIA - absolutely and totally wrong. If that were the case, Max would have no problem. It's obviously untrue as pointed out numerous times in this thread. But it won't stop Frankie from crapping all over FOTA if it helps him support PornoMax.
     
  19. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Thanks - I came up with it entirely on my own, never copied it from anyone, no-siree.
     
  20. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Yeh and I have worn it out...;)
     
  21. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I'm not 100% why they need a sanctioning body, but it makes sense to have somebody outside the teams to hold sway so to speak... I think Mike covered the rest...;)
     
  22. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

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    It is my understanding that all EU member countries have: 1) agreed to comply with the International Sporting Regulations as promulgated by the FIA; and 2)that all motor racing events promoted in their countries will be governed by the FIA...
     
  23. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    You better get on the phone with LeMans and MotoGP and let them know they've been running illegally all these years!

    I'm amazed that none of the FOTA teams or lawyers knew that it was illegal for them to run a series outside of FIA control - what a massive blunder! Surely Max will be laughing all the way to the whorehouse!
     
  24. DGS

    DGS Four Time F1 World Champ

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    But isn't the failure to provide permanent stewards one of the sore points about FIA now?

    Isn't that one of the issues that comes up every time the stewards pull a questionable ruling?
     
  25. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Yes.

    But, if the FIA sanctions the new FOTA series, then the FIA only has as much clout as FOTA affords them. For example, breaches of the regulations could be handled by a governance committee during the race, and the FIA stewards would have no say in the matter. The stewards don't have to have any power other than to handle big-picture and logistical issues, like "did the track make sure the ambulances were here and the fire extinguishers are full". They don't need to have any say in the actual event, it depends what power they are afforded under the rules.

    Also, I think the FIA is required to offer their services... FOTA doesn't have to accept, but I don't think the FIA can refuse to sanction a legitimately organized series. I doubt FOTA would go for this, though, because any interactions with the FIA would mean some opportunity for Mosley to dig his claws in - like raising FIA superlicense fees to $1mm/yr or something equally ridiculous, then negotiating down from that number and working additional control for himself into the mix.
     
  26. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Because of the current stupid F1 rules and regulations.
     
  27. F1Ace

    F1Ace F1 Rookie

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    SRTMIKE, you seem pretty well read up on the sport, how did the teams
    feel about the changes for this year, like KERS, the new aerodynamics,
    and what seem like increased ride heights every year?
     
  28. iwanna860monza

    iwanna860monza Karting

    Sep 19, 2004
    237
    I agree entirely, and the key was the EU's anti - competition lawsuit, right ?. So, legally the only redress would be IF they had a teams legal entry for 2010 onwards and you could sue for breach of contract, but since the end of the concord agreement, most dont, and it would appear even if they did you could just send a B team for the year...........
    End of story, right...........

    But I reckon this will all be resolved and there will be no breakaway championship

    T
     

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