I think you take the vin# and make a recreation with that one! But maybe there are a few bits you can hammer out and reuse... Ken
Here's something to ponder. Even the restoration is part of the history of the car, sympathetic or "over". Parts are renewed, remade are still part of the car's history. Here's a theoretical for all of you over 50, if there existed a pill you could take, with no harmful side effects, that would instantly make you look 20yrs. old again, would you take it? Your history is erased, just the effects. Without the restorers' skills a lot of the cars that exist today would not be here to enjoy. Just my .02
first re: Fangio - I snipped this out of the Count Volpi letter to Time Magazine (see the Volpi thread in 'Racing'). this is what Volpi had to say about Fangio: "He never went off the road whether testing or racing, as too many drivers do today, never spun his car and never, ever criminally pushed another car with his own. Fangio only had two accidents in his career: in 1948, during the 6,000-mile Buenos Aires-Lima-Caracas road race, and in 1952 at Monza." second - I totally do not understand the cavalier, nonchalant attitude I see over and over in this forum about crashing rare, irreplaceable competition Ferraris. Do you really not see the difference between running a car so hard in the 1950s that it was crashed and running one now so hard that it is crashed? Winning mattered back then for that car and it doesn't now. Scaglietti will never beat another panel for a 1950s sports racer. The one that we've been fortunate to have owned for the part 45 years still shows Scaglietti's original hammer marks. You seem to think that it's OK to run the car beyond my abilities and destroy that original bodywork. I don't; I think it's asinine and would be a tragedy. We will run this car when it's back in running order, but I thank god that we'll be in the North America Shell Historics and not the European series where carnge seems to be more prevalent. If you "get" vintage Ferrari passion, I think you'd agree that running these cars does not necessarily equal bending them. A shunt in these cars almost certainly means destroying original, hand-made craftsmanship. Shoot me in the head for raising Arlie's oft-repeated "grandfather's axe" analogy here, but it fits. Presumably, you want to see the real thing out there when you go to see vintage comp Ferraris on the track, not just a facsimile w/ shreds of the original somewhere underneath. Hell, there are so many replicas out there, maybe FNA can start a Shell Historic Replica Series where weekend warriors can run their cars at 10/10s and nothing truly historical is lost when they get mangled. sorry for the rant p.s. About 80% of 0556(0446)MD's body is original; except for the rear right quarter when it spun at Nassau '56 and Wacky Arnolt ran into it in his steel-bodied Arnolt Bristol.
Quite right about Pebble. I've been there twice and taken home trophies twice with cars that are IMHO not overrestored and drivers. I found the judges helpfull and knowledgeable. I think Pebble is very much interested in cars that are driven and therefore not perfect. Even if they prefer more restoration than I do they were very friendly to me and my cars road dirt, rock chips and all.
Brian... Fangio's good friend and co-driver Daniel Urrutio (sp) was killed in the first major accident you mention and Fangio himself was seriously injured in the accident at Monza. Your original comment relative to Fangio didnt mention these two accidents, it only said he never crashed. Thats a very different thing. Fangio also bent his Ferrari pretty badly at Monaco in '56 and broke his own car at Monza in '56 both times taking over the car of Collins in order to finish. Fangio is my all time favorite driver and a personal hero since I was a small kid. I totally agree with the good Count that he was in a class far above the current crop of drivers or drivers such as Senna. But he did wreck a few cars. I do not advocate getting crazy and smashing cars left and right for no good reason. Nor is such a thing going on today. But I do very much love the vintage racing of these machines and I see nothing wrong with it. If a car does get bent somewhat, fix it. A piece of aluminum is a piece of aluminum is a piece of aluminum. Hand crafted in the original manner to original specs is just fine. I much prefer this to locking the cars away in a climate / temperature controlled sealed vault where it may receive maximum preservation but nobody gets to see it or enjoy it. I believe Enzo would get a kick out of how some people treat his old racing cars like blessed by the virgin Mary herself old master relics or something. They are racing cars. Gorgeous, historically important, valuable and more no doubt but racing cars all the same. Race them! There is no perfect solution to this debate and thus the debate itself is worthless. The owners of the cars will ultimately decide. Just keep in mind that time itself will ensure without any doubt that eventually ALL of these cars will not be "original". Terry
Actually, as long as what I am watching run looks (even upon very close-up inspection by an expert), sounds, runs, drives and smells just like the real thing, I could care less if its in fact an extremely accurate replica. I not only dream of a race series such as you mention... but if it were to happen I would personally be a participant. It would be INCREDIBLE to have a dream 1963 World Sportscar Championship run with such 100% accurate replicas. A field full of lightweight E-Type Jags, 250GTOs, Cobra Daytonas, Aston DB4GT Zagatos and/or Project 212s, and other such cars would be GREAT. To me, thats a perfect solution. Most modern racing is just nowhere near as fun to watch. Those old cars are not only very fast, but they are incredibly exciting to watch. The Goodwood Revival on DVD is about as good of racing as I have ever seen, anywhere, ever. Terry
I personally like vintage cars that breathe their history through every pore but that is just my personal taste. There's a thin line between overrestoration and proper maintenance but as Tspringer rightfully points out, race cars were made for one sole purpose... racing... If you take Julian Majzub, who races his stable of vintage cars almost to the extreme, you'll see that the cars are still largely original eventhough he crashes them from time to time and fixes them again. I watched him at the Monaco Historic Grand Prix in his Bugatti, smoking the rear tires every single lap at the swimming pool "chicane". Amazing! I believe he was faster than any Bugatti ever at Monaco (taking into account the changed conditions such as track surface etc.). Too bad he crashed the car a couple of laps later (I believe at St. Devote), almost head-on into the barriers, he himself being smashed into the steering wheel. I saw the car after the crash and apart from a badly bent steering wheel (for obvious reasons... OUCH!) I think the chassis was bent as well. Nevertheless, the car is fixed again and IMHO still original as it makes no difference WHEN it was crashed and repaired. The same goes for Bart Rosman's Bugatti which caught fire at the Monaco Historic (from the top of my head it was an oil leak and the dripping oil caught fire). Rosman kept driving for about a lap and a half before being black-flagged. In a recent interview he said that he had NOT repainted the car there where it had sustained (minor) fire damage as that incident now belongs to the car's history eventhough the damage occurred in its VERY recent history. To me, these cars breath life and turning them into perfectly restored show case jewels does indeed destroy their history but I also realize that it is completely up to the owners how they treat their cars. Just my 0.02 Euro
Same for this one.... Still haven't found the time to go and take a look myself and possibly purchase it... Image Unavailable, Please Login
50 years from now, will a car that was crashed and repaired or "restored" in 2005 be considered original?
Probably not. You're already seeing it with cars like the GTOs, everyone knows which ones have new bodies on them and they are more or less priced accordingly. The market will probably always put a premium on a more original car as there are fewer of them out there. Its a shame that most of the early Bentleys have been rebodied...
And that fact will be a powerful incentive to keep the cars which are still original as original as possible.
Very true. And while I agree with Tspringer that these cars are made to be driven (thrashed), there is a difference between putting at risk a vintage car and risking one you paid ENORMOUSLY for because of its originality. Once a car has been repaired, restored, whatever, the pressure is off and you can really do with it as you will. It's a much harder pill to swallow with an unmolested unit.
I now understand that there is a market for fake Rolex watches. The sad thing is that the fakes make originals less desirable and bring them down in value.
There is no question that shunting a major car has a huge negative effect on it's value. There is also no question that period damage is different $ wise than modern damage. A dent put in by Bruce McLaren is quite different than one put in by Terry.
Hey! I suspect I am being insulted a bit here! Are you implying that MY driving ability is somehow less heroic than Bruce McLarens?????? I agree that from a value perspective modern damage, if its very severe, will have a negative impact. Minor damage however probably will not. With cars like the 250GTO, 250TR, 335S, 410S or other 50's or 60's sports racing cars most of them have had extensive damage and repairs both in period and often in more modern times as well. Of the very few cars that are still "original" I think the owners are wise to NOT race the piss out of them. Were I the owner of such a car I also would not risk it. BUT, if I were the owner of such a car I would sell it for top dollar and buy a replacement of the same model but with accident damage history and such so I could race the piss out of it without as much risk. Terry
I disagree. The number and quality of 250GTO or 250TR replicas out there has had and will never have an impact on the values of the real things. The actual real cars are well known, including those with questionable histories, and the replicas are known for what they are. With a Rolex, it can be very hard to tell whether its original or not just by external inspection. But if you were buying a 250GTO, unless you were an idiot, you would know whether it was real or a replica. Terry
An uncirulated 1893 S Morgan dollar is so rare that they sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's a silver dollar, money, should it be spent as a dollar because that's what it is? Of course it will quickly degrade into a circulated dollar; still valuable but not the same. There is a class of vintage car that should never be raced and rarely be driven on public roads. "Hammer marks from Scaglietti...." OMG, that's worth keeping just as it is. A wrecked and re-wrecked 250 GTO I'd drive; if it gets wrecked again you're not losing anything. Ken
Of course it does. Those who want a Daytona spider have almost 300 cars to choose from instead of original 123 or so. This has a certain effect on demand and price of a real thing: you simply don't have to buy a real thing to get one! Then there is another thing: if you drive around with a real car you will be constantly assumed to have a fake (the Rolex effect!). Some people are very uncomfortable with this and they rather choose another type of car (or watch). This has further effect on demand and prices. With other models, smaller scale maybe, but otherwise the same. This is just one of many reasons for me to dislike fakes: building a fake is stealing money from the owner of a real thing.
Yes, don't you hate it when you see those $90,000 restorations on Mondial 8's? Just a bit over the top.
I like (or dispise) the term "Rolex effect". Unfortunately I think it is all to true. I love Cobra's however the fakes have essentially ruined them for me. There were 169 Alfa SZ made in 1960-61 and nearly two hundred have survived (I know of ten fakes). I have endevored to "out" the fakes as they have become known and it remains a real sore point. I feel for those that have gotten burned by this sort of thing. - George
The SZ Register is run by a couple of gentlemen in England and contact info can be found at http://www.szregister.com/. Also a "group" site exists for owners of SZ and SVZ Alfas. A fairly high number of the cars are known to the register and a fair number are members of the group site as well. Not a highly active group site, however it has been great for sharing of info and taking the fakes. I believe the listing of cars is not circulated so creative types do not try to show up with a long missing car. George
