Over-restoration:Why?

I have to disagree. You are looking at the car only for its monetary value, and that is fine. However, I would much prefer someone to own a classic Ferrari because they appriciate what the vehicle is; and not what it is worth, or because they want people to envy them. Thats why I dont have a problem with certain replicas. Some people love these cars so much, but will never be of the circumstance to own one. So, they do what they can to be as close to the cars as possible. The only replicas I cant stand were made for the purpose of deception, as if the person is much more successful than they really are. The trendiness of Ferrari ownership is really a turn-off. You should be required to know how to change your own oil before you can purchase one.

 

hi I like your post, It's a brain teaser, i tend to disagree I restored classic cars for living back in the 80s. Some cars are so badly neglected that they need some TLC. Having said that I saw a lot of twits spend $30 k on an Mg. Far outweighing the value of the car, this can also be said about Ferrari's not all in the stable are worth a million $$$. I think each owner should decide to what lenght there love is with the F car. Old age affects us all just like in a car, so if the wife gets a face lift or her boobs enlarged I dont' see a differnce, if it makes u feel better do it. At least do it properly and not a half hearted attempt. If repainting go back to bear metal & cut all the rust out & replace with steel not filler.
Andrew

 

Hello,
I also really enjoyed this post....the issue at hand is one I have dealt with for a long time. I worked in a classic car dealer for 5 years and although "over-restored" cars are pretty they just dont have any feeling to them. For me, when i get into a well preserved classic I get a feeling that there is a real story, and now im apart of it....That said...I am not for just letting a rare car just waste away...if it needs to be restored then do so....just do it as close to OEM as possible...as time goes on everyone I believe will enjoy a OEM condition car more than a "over-restored" car....because...anyone with money can have a car made prestine(over-restored) but it takes alot of time, effort, dedication, and money to do it right....

 

There are a LOT more SZ and TZ fakes than 10. Probably close to 100.

 

Stu, As you can see by my post I was refering only to the SZ Coda Tonda (169 +/- cars built) and the number of ten fakes was the number of cars that have been diffinitively identified and are representing themselves as real cars. I do know of a few Coda Troncas as well, and TZ's are a whole different story. I tend to think your assertion of "close to a hundred" is a bit high even if you include all SVZ, SZ, and TZ. That is a lot of cars. I would be surprised if the number of SZ and TZ fakes was over forty. If I'm wrong, show me (SVZ is too much of a wild card). George

 

Okay. Lets say you have a car that was previously damaged, and the guy who repaired it did lousy work. For example, my 308 has had the sheet metal cut off over the wheel well, and a used section welded in. The buckled frame section was left alone, and some really horrible welding was done. Should I attempt to correct it, or is it worth more boogered up? The car was repainted red, when it was originally dark blue. Do I strip it and start over and correct the color, or leave it alone? I can do most of the work myself, and if I stripped the car, painting it wouldnt be overly expensive. Its just a matter of time more than actual costs. But seeing as the rest of the car is mostly an original car in good general condition, it seems it wants to be put back right. But do I paint it with really modern two part paint, or some plain high quality acrylic enamel?

I can understand the fire truck scenario to some extent, but I can also see the opposite. What would the people who used it want? Wouldnt the old first owner be awe struck to see it like new? Who's history are we protecting, thiers, or ours? I think what the beginning of this thread was alluding to, is restoring it far beyond anything it ever was, so far as even polishing away sand cast marks.

I would also relate some of this to vintage aircraft. Some P-38 Lightenings are still being flown, but they crash. Some crash leaving nothing. They cannot really be made again. The machines that made some of the parts dont exist. There are peices that to remake them would cost fortunes to make. Your talking fortunes on top of fortunes. The one brought out of the ice ended up like a brand new airplane, but its costs have exceeded anything anyone could have imagined. Do we keep destroying them, or park them? What if a modern replica could be more simple and economically made that looks, flies, and sounds like one. That wouldnt be so horrific would it? Would it be so horrible to have replica vintage Ferrari's with replica engines that can be replaced? As long as they were built simularly, yet you could tell, I wouldnt mind. Wouldnt a replica 333SP or a 312PB be a blast to own?

 

You are comparing apples and oranges. A 308 is the most common Ferrari built with some 12,000 plus having rolled off the production line. A car with lovely lines, but that is not what we are talking about. Fix the damage to the best of your ability and do whatever finish satisfies you. There are countless low milage 308s' of every configuration, whose owners dote on them and show them, that will serve to preserve there place in the world.

The cars of the forties through the sixties, and those with special histories or very small productions in particular, that merit consideration when embarking on a restoration. - George

 

I do not see apples and oranges at all. In time, I believe these early 308 cars will rise in demand, and price. But that is not the point either. This is a discussion simply of restoration, and of originality. Forget the example is a 308, lets say its a 330 GT, or a 250 GT, same problem. Would a 250 with unseen damage and welded in newer panels along with older original sheet metal that runs and drives and looks nice, be worth as much as a simular car that was repaired to the same quality as when new, but with all new metal? Is that original metal really of any intrinsic value?

 

Your still talking regular production cars. As said before repair and restore as close as possible to the way it was built including the "boogered up" frame section. If I found my car had some burried damage I would be inclined to put it right regardless if it was a 308 or a 166MM. George

 

How do you feel about face lifts, breast augmentation, teeth whitening and liposuction?

Maybe when you married her she was 20lbs over weight, a B-cup and had some yellowing to her teeth. Twenty years later she has sagged more, while your income has vastly increased. Do you restore her to her alter condition or do you get her a set of DDs and a Julia Robert's smile? Say she is up to a size 14, do you lipo her down to the size 10 she was at the wedding or do you bring her down to a size 6? Sure the saggy breasts and wide ass tell a history of having raised three children, do we really need that much information or originality?

We are all over restored. When you entered the job market you probably wore a $100 suit each day to work and you climbed the ladder on your work, not your outfit, but today you might wear a $800 suit to protray an image of success or value, so you have over restored yourself.

It's your car, do what you like. I have no problem with someone taking a car that left the factory as an 8.2 and bringing it up to a 10.0 status. Just because Ferrari was unwilling or unable to present the customer with a perfect product should not dictate the buyer's ability to seek perfection. The Saleem's supposedly have shoddy paint work, I bet most people paying $550,000 for one of those vehicles refinish the car soon after purchase.

Ironically, if you purchased a Cadilliac and it had the finish issues or maintence issues of a Ferrari it would be labeled "American junk" and next words would be about how the Japanese deserve to have taken over the market. We grant Ferrari much more leyway in terms of quality than we would ever give a GM or Ford that costs 20% as much, why is that? The only explaination seems to be the exotic allure and status, because it can not be justified with logic or economics.

 

Thats a good one.

 

Southerncharm,

Love the analogy! Enjoyed the post. On the otherhand, if you are going to put that much effort on rebuilding, why not trade up?!?



Krowbar,

As you are the owner, it's your call. Personally, I would have the repairs done correctly and the original color returned. The orignial craftsmanship is already obscured and, according to your post, Bubba's repair job doesn't add anything to the car.

A protion of my hood was repainted, it doesn't properly match the old paint. I'm going to try to see how much original paint still remains under the resprayed area.

Restoration and the extent thereof is a judgement call the car's owner must make. The comments here are opinions and suggestions not rules or laws.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Seems most current owners of the rare, multi-million dollar cars are individuals with dazzling homes, glamour wives and Robin Leach vacations. So, let's be reasonable, when it comes to car restoration, it would be unfair to expect these people to not go overboard.

Our culture is one that believes show is more important that go. If you disagree then explain the Governator, and the overwhelming popularity of Ronnie.

But seriously, it takes certain maturity of taste to not confuse intrinsic beauty with glitter.

john

 

Well, I just asked to see what kind of response I would get. Obviously its all an individual decision, at least until the prohibitionists take away our cars because we are hurting thier historic value, whatever that may be. I was watching a show on art theft, and this detective actually said that people had no right to keep art for themselves, that no individual could care for it or present it as well as a museum. Now I took what he said out of context because he was refering to stolen art, but he didnt clarify what he said. There are some here who seem very upset as to how certain of these cars are being treated, and it kind of bothers me a bit.

On one hand, its my car, or its your car, do what you want. On another level, I do feel we have a ethical responsibility to show these cars as they were meant to be. I see some of these wild 308 creations and I just shake my head. But I see a Koenig TR with those slats removed, and I WANT one. Well, not really. I know this is a vintage discussion, but even cars that arent, will be someday. But the reality truely is, we can all say whatever we want, but when it comes time to sell it, anything less than perfect is criticised. You might say you want a car that looks like it rolled out of Maraneelo 30 years ago, but if you seen it with that less than perfect paint, or ripply metal, you would offer less money for it.

 

Wait a second guys......I think the essence of this thread is basically this:

If you have a nice, original car (original leather, original carpet, dash cover, headliner, paint, chrome, etc.), you should at least consider overlooking small blemishes and leaving it that way rather than throwing away the cars history in order to win some Concorse d'elegance wall plaque that means, really, nothing.

I'm faced with this right now. I have an original car that is one of the nicest unrestored examples of its kind. Club members have told me, "You know, if you resprayed it and re-did the leather on the driver's seat it would be perfect. You'd win every show". They are probably right, but I can't do that. I remember visiting the factory in 1969 and watching interiors being installed. I get a kick out of sitting on the very leather those craftsmen touched. Maybe I'm a sentimental mope, but I get satisfaction out of preserving what those people built. In that sense I think Doug Nye is spot on, the car is only original once. The Europeans understand this, and we Americans don't seem to get it. Once you tear the car apart and re-do it, it changes from an historic object to a sample of the handywork of "Kevin's Kustom Kolor" or "Larry's Leatherworks". Just my two cents.

 

Spot on Daryl!

 

I've been intentionally avoiding this thread, but I can't stay away any longer. Back "in the day" I spent a lot of time in the garage of a major collector (see Forza#60 "The Garage Gang"). We were having the SAME discussion 40 years ago,i.e. what is a correct restoration? Is it to make the car "perfect", or is it to duplicate what the factory did? My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the responsibility for the current state of affairs can be laid at the feet of concours judges and the judging standards.

 

This has been an amazingly intelligent and thoughtful discussion, everybody has raised excellent points to ponder. I have seen and ogled the restored Ferraris at Pebble Beach and wondered if the racing examples ever looked so perfect when they rolled out the factory door. I raced sports cars for 33 years and rarely remember seeing real working race cars looking so picture perfect. However, on the other hand, I greatly appreciate the craftmanship of the restorers of these fine machines. So, I can argue both sides of this debate.

My 1960 250 PF coupe has been sat in for about 80km and it shows that somebody's butt has slid into the leather seat for that many miles. I could re-skin the seats I suppose to make them look the way they did when the factory installed them. But, this car is 45 years of age, it is not a 2005 or 2006 model. The seat covers are not cracked or torn, just well used and loved by a series of appreciative butts. So, I am inclined to leave them just the way they are now after having been fabricated by the factory, not by Joe's Upholstery and Lawn Care.
Ed Long