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P 4/5 oil

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Napolis, Apr 10, 2008.

  1. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    We were doing a number of very hot laps this weekend in Bahrain. Track temp. was 105F. Water temp was fine, we're using a high tech coolant, but 0-60 Helix ran a bit hot and PSI was a touch low. Any ideas for a track day oil?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nivr2Vgjf8c&feature=email
     
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  3. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    The Butcher
    You probably know this, but the excess temperature was the cause of the low pressure. Fix the oil cooling problem and you won't have a pressure problem any more.
     
  4. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    For sure but do you think 20-60 or straight 60 would run cooler? We have a lot of oil rad.

    Best
     
  5. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    David
    Thanks for the great video. I'd have liked to see the outside camera mount. How was it rigged?
     
  6. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    They shouldn't run any cooler. Their viscosities might be less affected by the temperature to help keep the pressure up, but you still don’t want it running over temp.

    I would fix the temperature problem first.

    If you don’t have room for larger oil coolers perhaps a water/oil heat exchanger to cool the oil and water/air exchangers mounted in the airflow where the current oil/air exchangers are would solve the problem since water dumps heat more readily than oil?….it would add a little weight though with the extra parts.
     
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  8. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus

    Tape.
     
  9. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Makes sense. The oil temp stayed just below red line and these were extreme conditions. When we turned AC off temps dropped. Would you worry at just below red line for hard track days?
     
  10. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Ah, the answer to all problems.
     
  11. JCR

    JCR F1 Veteran
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    Mar 14, 2005
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    H-Town, Tejas
    MR. G

    You might want to try Redline or Motul Ester. The polyol ester basestocks (group V) are more high temperature stable that other basestocks.
     
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  13. Alex1015

    Alex1015 Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2005
    941
    USA
    I'm just curious but why is this? Wouldn't the coolant expand from temperature? Or does it then occupy the overflow tank and thus lower the pressure? I'm pretty inexperienced here but it just seemed to me to be the reverse. Can you explain why it's the reverse? Thanks
     
  14. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    My question would be: How does the new bodywork affect the airflow into the oil cooler? Was the ducting modified in P4/5 (angles, length, etc) to feed the oil cooler from the original Enzo format?
     
  15. wetpet

    wetpet F1 World Champ
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    May 3, 2006
    10,151
    they are talking about the oil, not the coolant.
     
  16. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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  17. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,361
    Osprey, Florida
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    Ali E. Haas
    One should read, AND Understand my articles here:

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=new_faq_item#faq_haas_articles

    Then you would see that hot oil is normal under these conditions and it thins when hot. This is good too as it allows for more flow. A thicker oil would run hotter. A thinner oil would run cooler. FYI, Shell Helix Ultra 10W40 thins very fast. This may be planned to allow for more flow. Look at this used oil comparison I posted on BobIsTheOilGuy web site:

    This is my neighbor’s 2003 Ferrari Enzo with a total of 8,800 miles on the left column and my 2003 Enzo with a total of 3,000 miles on the right column. Both cars had 1,400 miles on the oil. His obviously had more break-in time. He had the oil changed by the Ferrari dealer using the required 10W60 Shell Helix Ultra Racing oil. I ran 0W30 Castrol GC.

    The recommended interval is 5,000 miles, less if on the track. This is strictly off track use in town and on the highway, probably 50-50 for his car and 90 percent city for me.

    His oil was tested by: www.youroil.net, while I got the full, total evaluation from Terry Dyson at www.dysonanalysis.com.
    ................................................................................................................

    _____________Shell....GC
    Iron___________ 32...11
    Chromium _____<1...0
    Nickel ___*_____ 2...1
    Aluminum ______11...3
    lead __________ 16...0
    Copper ________25...8
    Tin ___________<1...0
    Silver ________<.1...0
    Titanium ______<1...0
    Silicon _________ 7...3
    Boron _________ 1...3
    Sodium ________ 8...3
    Potassium ____<10...0
    Molybdenum __ <5...1
    Phosphorus __1026...935
    Zinc ________ 1135...1228
    Calcium _____ 1454...1671
    Barium _______<10...0
    Magnesium ___1219...526
    Antimony _____<30...0
    Vanadium ______<1...0
    Fuel %Vol _____<1...1.2
    Abs Oxid ______34...10
    Abs Nitr _______11...8
    Wtr %vol ______<0.1...KF=247 &#8220;nice dry fluid&#8221;
    Vis CS 100C __ 15.8...11.8
    Vic CS 40C___not done...66
    SAE Grade _*___40...30
    Gly test ______NEG...0.37 &#8220;not antifreeze&#8221;
    TBN _________not done...7.9

    Castrol GC is the German made European Formula 0W30. Mine stayed in its 30 grade whereas his fell from 60 to 40 grade in just 1,400 simple miles of use.

    aehaas

    Currently I am running Renewable Lubricants Incorporated, RLI, biodegradable, vegetable based oil, 0W30. My 0W30 shows a lot less wear though his numbers are still in the normal range. One could say that he shows normal wear and I show just about no wear.

    aehaas
     
  18. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Would you be concerned with just under redline hot/ 35 PSI with very hard track use on a 105F day with 0-60?
     
  19. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
  20. lmpdesigner

    lmpdesigner Formula 3
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    Nov 5, 2003
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    Atlanta Georgia
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    Brian Willis
    I ran (engineered) a Maserati MC12 FIA GT car in the Japanese GT series and we ran the following oil, as recommended by Maserati Corse (and Ferrari SPA):

    Pakela 10W60

    As the MC12 motor is basically the enzo motor which is your motor the oil should be good for you.

    Many of the races in Japan are very, very hot, and we never had problems with our car. (650 ish hp)

    PM me if you want more info
     
  21. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    I know we’ve had this discussion before but this is all very wrong advice and will result in catastrophic engine failure if followed. It would be true in a constant pressure system, but that's not what automotive engines have. Automotive systems are positive displacement pumps that deliver a constant flow which is independent of viscosity at any given rpm. Running thinner oil will result in inadequate pressure which in turn results in inadequate film thickness and poor oil dispersion to the various components. You've collected a lot of good data but you are not interpeting it correctly. You need to stop giving this advise, you are going to help someone ruin their engine.
     
  22. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    I'd be very concerned. 35 psi at redline means the oil film in the bearings will be pretty thin, maybe too thin and metal to metal contact possible. You might want to have the oil tested to see if it picked up much metal if you haven't already dumped it just to make sure all is still well.
     
  23. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Hi

    We will have oil checked and also look into a bigger oil cooler. When I say just below redline I mean oil temp at mid level revs. PSI went up with higher revs. We felt we were down about 5 PSI from norm when oil got very hot.

    Thanks
     
  24. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Oh, Oh, Oh....never mind. Down 5 psi is not a concern, I thought you meant you had 35 psi at full revs where I'd guess normal was closer to 70.
     
  25. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Who would you recommend to test oil?

    Thanks
     
  26. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    You're never wrong to spend the $100 or so to test the oil and know everything is doing fine, but if you were only down 5 psi it's not reqired I don't think. If it was my $100k+ engine I probably would test it at every oil change or at least any oil change after track time. It's always better to know if your engine is making metal so you can tend to it before a bearing or rod lets go and takes the whole engine with it. An oil test is cheap insurance.
     
  27. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    46,681
    Texas!
    I wonder what the F1 teams were running. I realize that you're talking about full on race cars versus a street car. I also realize that you have to warm up the oil for an F1 car before even starting the engine. So does this make this an invalid comparison?

    Dale
     
  28. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

    Oct 29, 2004
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    NWA
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    Paul
    If I owned that car I would send a letter through the Ferrari owners site and ask them to respond. I would be surprised if they dont suggest a straight 70 weight for operation under those conditions.
     

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