News

P1

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by ilo, May 12, 2005.

  1. ilo

    ilo Karting

    Jul 27, 2004
    117
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 1, 2002
    17,971
    San Marino, CA
    Full Name:
    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    Can only be s/n 0822.
     
  4. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
    #3 P4Replica, May 12, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2014
    Why do you say that, Wayne ? Look at the Campagnolo 5-spokes. That's a big clue.
    I think you'll find that it's actually a photo of David Piper's 'other' 365P1 #0824.
    See Barchetta: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0824.365P2.htm
    ....and note the comment at the bottom of the page:
    Note: David Piper owns two P1 with the chassis number 0824. One has a new frame (built in 90) and one uses the original frame (finished in 98).

    'Pipes' wasn't too impressed when I pointed it out to him, because he had previously told Vincent Lasser that he didn't want it listed on his site. ;)
     
  5. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 1, 2002
    17,971
    San Marino, CA
    Full Name:
    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
    I think you're right. My error.
     
  6. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
    677
    Kind of difficult for him to keep it out of the public eye when the two '0824s' were parked next to each other at the Goodwood Revival a couple of years ago!!! (and Pipes himself was driving an 'interesting' 206s IIRC)

    Paul M
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
    677
    #6 macca, Jun 2, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Just found an old photo of s/n 0818 at the Spa 500k in 1965 driven by Mike Parkes - this is another car with an 'interesting' history after it was wrecked in Protheroe's fatal crash at Oulton Park in 1966.

    Paul M
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  9. Martin D

    Martin D F1 Rookie

    Nov 7, 2004
    3,117
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Martin Dietz
    #7 Martin D, Jun 2, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  10. kvisser

    kvisser Formula 3

    Dec 11, 2004
    1,929
    Damascus, MD
    Full Name:
    Ken Visser
  11. MJarrettR

    MJarrettR Formula 3

    Apr 14, 2004
    1,472
    Miami, FL
    Full Name:
    Jarrett Rothmeier
    Hi Ken,

    All of those pictures show 250P s/n 0810. The ones with #26 are at the 12h Sebring in 1965 and #22 is at Le Mans in 1963

    -Jarrett
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

    Apr 28, 2004
    6,415
    Etceterini Land
    Full Name:
    Dr.Stuart Schaller
    I've never seen a car officially called a "P1".
     
  14. MJarrettR

    MJarrettR Formula 3

    Apr 14, 2004
    1,472
    Miami, FL
    Full Name:
    Jarrett Rothmeier

    Hi 0818 spotters,

    There are actually TWO cars which currently, at least somewhat, claim to be 0818. The one in the pictures Martin posted, which I believe were taken by Edvar van Daalen at the AvD OltTimer Grand Prix, Nurburgring in 2003, is owned by Egon Hofer.

    0818 was fatally crashed by Dick Protheroe during practice for the Tourist Trophy at Oulton Park on April 28, 1966. The remains were retained by Dick's widow Rosemary Protheroe until 1967, when she sold the engine and the gearbox to David Piper. A month later, she sold the original chassis, suspension and other bits to Egon Hofer. In the late 1970s a replica was constructed at Redditch by Norman Seeney and Chris Schirle. A brand new chassis frame and new body were made by Wakefields of Byfleet. This was where the original engine ended up, so in this car only the engine is original. This is the car that is currently owned by Fabrizio Violati and is on display in the Maranello Rosso Collection in San Marino, Italy.

    As for the 0818 owned by Hofer, he had the chassis frame repaired by Edgar Berney, later checked thru by William Vaccari in Modena. The body of Hofer's car was built 1998/1999 new by Franco Ferrari in Modena (by using the same moulds already used for the body construction of 0820 for Obrist, now McCaw). Hofer's car has the old chassis, the old instruments, an old gas tank, the gearbox is original. He also has a spare 330 P gearbox. The engine in Hofer's 0818 has NO number at all. It is a brand new engine. Finally, in 2000 Hofer won two court cases against Violati in Italy, and his car is now considered the orgininal 0818.

    (The credit for the vast majority of this history should be given to Marcel Massini)

    So thats the story!

    -Jarrett
     
  15. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
    6,929
    So in the end, the legal identity of the car was determined to belong to the original chassis that was owned by Hofer. Did that chassis contain the original serial number stampings? Since the body was a modern re-creation, there must have been some basis of proof for the courts to determine that Hofer's car was the "original". What evidence was offered up as proof that HIS car was the "original"?
    Seems to me that there would have to be a frame stamping indicating the serial number, or an iron clad trail of provenance indicating the source of Hofer's frame. Any additional data?
     
  16. bigodino

    bigodino F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 29, 2004
    11,080
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Peter den Biggelaar
    De pictures are definitely taken at Spa Francorchamps. Could be by Edvar or any of the other Dutchies.

    Ciao, Peter
     
  17. MJarrettR

    MJarrettR Formula 3

    Apr 14, 2004
    1,472
    Miami, FL
    Full Name:
    Jarrett Rothmeier
    Horsefly,

    I was not involved in the case, however, as indicated in my posts below, the chassis of the car which Dick Protheroe crashed was obtained DIRECTLY from his widow by Hofer. This of course had all proper stampings on it, to the best of my knowledge

    -Jarrett
     
  18. evandaalen

    evandaalen Formula 3
    Consultant

    Feb 7, 2004
    2,374
    Deventer, NL
    Full Name:
    Edvar van Daalen
    #15 evandaalen, Jun 2, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The pictures were not taken by me, but I guess that Peter is right that it might be from one of the other Dutchies. Anyway, the two pics were shot at the Uwe Meissner / Modena Motorsport Ferrari Days 2002, at Spa-Francorchamps in Belgium. See below for two pictures that I made of the car, at the same event. For high-res pictures, see: http://community.webshots.com/album/43511754hhGZrF
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. CMAFLEXA

    CMAFLEXA Rookie

    May 26, 2005
    37
    #16 CMAFLEXA, Jun 2, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  20. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    The chassis is the car ... as you and everybody has long since agreed.

    When you think about it, it makes perfect sense. The chassis holds EVERYTHING together and enables the car to be whole. With out it you just have a collection of unusable parts ;)

    Hopefully one day the original engine/gearbox can be reunited with the chassis ... but its not critical, as probably raced with a few different engines, etc.

    As for the person claiming they owned an original car just because they had the engine ... dissappointing is all I can say.

    Pete
     
  21. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
    6,929
    As is anybody claiming they owned an original car just because they had a partial frame with no serial number? :)
     
  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Hehe :D ... but he is working on proving that the frame or a substantial part of it are original.

    Now an engine by itself ... well it is just an engine.

    Have a great weekend :)
    Pete
     
  23. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
    677
    I don't think it was ever used in the 60s, not even after the P2, P3 and P4 came out, and not even when running in the same race - but it has made it easier to distinguish them from the 196/246SP and 312P.

    However, there are so many variations in the 'P1' that maybe it should have a whole sub-series of designations! The 1963 250P was updated with a 3.3 litre engine for 1964 and called the 275P - but also new cars were built also called 275P which had the different body with the smoother rear wing intakes, the longer tail and raked windscreen. And the 330P............were the 4-litre and 3.3-litre engines interchangeable? I thought the mountings were different. Piper's P2 s/n 0836 started as a 4-cam works car and was then fitted with a 2-cam 4.4-litre engine like all the customer P2s....but again I thought the engine mountings were different.

    0818 was given a special body for Dick Protheroe, designed by Mike Parkes and more like the P2/3 updates of the P2 for 1966 - I've got a picture somewhere which I'll post next week.


    Paul M
     
  24. macca

    macca Formula Junior

    Dec 3, 2003
    677
    #21 macca, Jun 6, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  25. CMAFLEXA

    CMAFLEXA Rookie

    May 26, 2005
    37
    #22 CMAFLEXA, Aug 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  26. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Yes as in the case you allude to a legal ruling that can not be appealed by anyone and has been recognised in legal documents by both US and Italian Customs and Motor Vehicle Authorities, has been rendered. Legally that question has been answered for all time.
     
  27. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
    6,929
    Somebody really did some digging to pull this thread back up after 3 years.
     
  28. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    #25 Napolis, Sep 1, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2008

Share This Page