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P4 chassis blueprints

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Horsefly, Dec 21, 2016.

  1. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,312
    What components have you gathered together so far for this project.

    I still do not understand why you want to authentically replicate a semi stressed P4 chassis then fit a non load bearing engine of some description into it using brackets and try to fit everything else alternative into the P4 locations such as gearbox, suspension etc etc etc but are worried it wont be viewed as correct otherwise.

    Its never even going to be close to being regarded as anything P4 anyway so why make life so hard and the end result would be a very comprised vehicle as a result anyway.

    The P4 is about the look and the engineering, you can replicate the former but not the latter, however you can produce a decent chassis and running gear to compliment the body.

    With my own project, I love the look of the F40 LM which can be replicated but wanted it all Ferrari under the skin as well, there was no point trying to replicate an F40 chassis as it would have been a compromise hence why I chose a 355, same wheelbase so the body is positioned correctly but nothing under the skin will copy anything F40.
     
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  3. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
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    Because I want to,...that's why. Why does anybody want, or need a Ferreri that will do 150mph on highways that are only legally rated for 70mph? I don't care if anybody else approves or not. It would be easier to duplicate a P4 chassis than it would be to duplicate a 57 Chevy chassis. A P4 is just a bunch of tubing welded together. It would be nearly impossible to duplicate a 50s or 60s Chevy or Ford because of their giant form molded rails and cross members. Duplicating a P4 would be a cake walk for any welder by comparison. It's just a matter or finding the dimensions. From what I've seen of original P type frames in photographs, nothing is form molded or stamped with multi ton presses. It's all just small pieces of steel tubing welded together. Look at the front and rear A arms on a P4. Just simple tubing totally unlike a 57 Chevy or an old Ford that would be 10 times more difficult complicated to replicate.

    As for what components have I gathered? None,..because there is no point in gathering anything if I can't find a diagram of the original frame from which to establish a starting point of reference.

    I really don't think there is much hot rodding blood in the Ferrari community. Too many people saying "it can't be done" and not enough willing to say "let's try it."

    It's worth repeating: Scinta made some wonderful looking aluminum alloy bodies of several vintage Ferraris so such efforts can produce excellent results.
     
  4. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,312
    Well good luck in your endeavours and start a build thread down in the special projects section once its on the go.
     
  5. Gleggy

    Gleggy Formula 3

    Sep 22, 2004
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    Right out of left field, a different line of thinking, some of the very expensive models that are available have the most critical details on them, Amalgam etc.
    Some kits have complete tube chassis from original construction drawings.
    These can be 3D scanned, if nothing else it would be an invaluable reference tool during the construction, if of course you decide to go ahead with the project.
    If not you'll have a beautiful model to gaze at and something in your office to scream "I wonder if I could have" as time goes by.
     
  6. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
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    #30 Horsefly, Jan 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
    Yes Gleggy, I am starting to think that I may have to draw up my own "original" design using a combination of photo analysis, model schematics, and anything else that I can find. I was hoping to find a usable blueprint and maybe take it to a local shop that builds high quality dirt track chassis and see what they might think of the idea. I bet they probably have a large surface plate to lay out their chassis projects and something like a 60 year old tubing design would not be such a big deal. I'm still digging for info. And even if I never even turn a wrench, just putting a P4 chassis diagram on paper is starting to look like quite an accomplishment in itself.
     
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  8. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    I'm intrigued. Which kits have complete tube chassis? Are these Ferraris, or do you mean something like the bird-cage Maserati? Thanks
    Nathan
     
  9. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    #32 miurasv, Jan 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
    Nathan, see this Hiro model in link here: MiniWerks Forum - Fred Suber 1/12 Ferrari 330 P4 Spider #0846

    Although the details aren't quite right on this particular model of 0846 which was as a P3 at the front and did not have adjustable bias for the brakes and the master cylinders were placed further forward, P4 plans or a P4 must have been copied for this excellent model.

    Perhaps Gleggy is thinking of another model????
     
  10. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Steve - fantastic model. In your opinion, how accurate is that chassis? Is it the COMPLETE tube chassis?
    I wonder where/how they got the information when no one else seems to have it?
    Nathan
     
  11. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #34 miurasv, Jan 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
    See my edited post above. It looks excellent for a P4 down to having one of the tubes in the front veering off at a slight angle and not parallel with the tubes behind and in front of it as it is on a real P4. This is one of the numerous details on Mr Glickenhaus's replica chassis that proves it's built to P4 plans as David Piper said all along, and not P3 as Mr Glickenhaus says. See post here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/144886117-post9161.html
     
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  13. piloti

    piloti Formula 3
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    Steve - Thanks.
    Nathan
     
  14. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
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    I have been examining and comparing some of the photos of the 0858 chassis as restored by Piper and the Norwood P4 replica chassis. Other than some more noticeable differences in the rollover hoop bracing which may be a result of not utilizing any cylinder head mounting points,…I don’t see too many glaring differences in the Norwood frame from the original frames. And by “glaring differences”, I mean anything that would jump out at you as very different from an original frame to the point that it would look like a kit car or an abuse of the original style of design.
    Can anybody point out any of the specific points of a Norwood P4 frame that stick out as different from an original? Of course as has been said many times: There were only a few P4 frames built and they vary from each other in different cars and probably from race to race.
    Also, do the Norwood cars use an aluminum body or fiberglass? And in a similar vein,…didn’t the original P4 cars use some fiberglass body parts in some races? Were the originals ALL produced with aluminum alloy bodies to begin with? What prompted a switch to fiberglass in some races and who produced the fiberglass body parts?
    Can anybody point out any differences between the original Ferrari P4 body and a Norwood body? Now I know that the Fchat purists are super picky and know every detail,….but,….being realistic,…is the Norwood body and frame really THAT different from an original?
     
  15. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    #37 PSk, Jan 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
  16. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
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    Indianapolis
    I'm sure the Norwood cars are evolving, some of the earlier ones were worse than horrible, but they have improved a great deal. the cowl is still too low and some of the body lines are off so that the car overall doesn't look "right"... If you take pictures at certain angles it doesn't look so bad, in particular if you shoot it from down near the ground it looks a lot better.

    Overall not as close in person as it is in the photos..
     
  17. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
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    #39 Horsefly, Jan 20, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I believe another big difference between an original P4 and a replica would be the routing of the brake lines and coolant fluid flow. Weren’t the originals routed down THROUGH the inside of the frame tubing? Some of the brake lines can be seen in the 0858 resto photos going INSIDE the frame tubing in what seems to be a rather crude manner.
    Am I correct in what appears to be 3 hydraulic cylinders? I assume that 2 are for the brakes (1 for front and 1 for rear,…both gang activated by a single pedal activating a pivot lever.) Each cylinder appears to have 2 sections but one section of each cylinder is not used, simply capped off with a short piece of sealed tubing about an inch long. I wonder what Italian car these master cylinders originally came on? And is the 3rd cylinder for a hydraulic clutch? Which brings to mind the question of how the accelerator linkage was accomplished in a P car. It’s a long way from the gas pedal to the carburetors.
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  18. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I don't believe the brake pipes go through the chassis tubes on these cars, but yes the water did.
    Pete
     
  19. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
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    #41 Horsefly, Jan 21, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have been closely examining photos of the Norwood P4 replica frame and it seems that there must be different versions of their frame,…or,..Norwood is evolving their frame over a period of time. Here are 2 photos of supposedly Norwood frames that I got from the net and the photos are not of the same exact frame type. Note the following numbered areas:
    1. The front end radiator mounting area is different.
    2. The front A arm and coilover shock mount area is different
    3. The steering rack mounting area in the top Norwood frame photo looks more like the original area in the 0858 resto photos, but not exactly the same. The bottom Norwood frame photo has a totally different steering rack mounting design and a stabilizer bar on the A arms.
    4. The rollover hoop has a different brace design.
    There are probably more differences but I only had these 2 assembled Norwood frame photos to examine. I also found a Youtube video showing a time lapse assembly of their P4 and it used the frame as in the top photo. As I examine the Norwood frame in detail, it seems to retain the full “flavor” of the original but seems to be a more rugged design. And since it uses round tubing like the originals, it doesn’t reek of a square tubing KIT car chassis.

    More chassis questions: Did the original P4s use a rack and pinion steering rack that was unique to the P4, or was it pulled off the parts shelf from another Ferrari or Fiat or whatever? Anybody know?
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  20. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
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    I just waded through 5 or 6 years of back postings on the 0846 thread. Tons of photos and information but yet nobody seems to have an accessible source for a P4 chassis diagram. Say it ain't so, Enzo.
     
  21. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
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    As I said earlier and as you will see the more you dig into it, the Norwood cars really don't share much with the original P4. Yes they are made from round tubing and have evolved to look more like a P4 than the first ones, but they really don't have much in common with the real thing. If you want something that is close to the real thing you're going to have to do some work to get what you want.
     
  22. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Horsefly,

    Even if you do find the factory drawings, unless you find all the other parts necessary to make a 100% dead accurate copy of a P4, your chassis will have to be compromised to bolt on the parts you instead use ... this is why Norwood's P4 chassis is "slightly" different.

    Honestly you are beating yourself up other an impossible mission.

    The chassis is usually the last component designed on any car, so decide what shell, hubs, shocks, engine and gearbox, etc. you are going to use and design a chassis in the same vein as a P4 to accept all these components. It will have hundreds of differences from the original chassis but unless you are MiuraSV (Steve) and a few others you will not notice.

    Best
    Pete
     
  23. Horsefly

    Horsefly F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2002
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    Not interested in trying to make a dead accurate replica. Just making it a left hand driver would negate any dead accurate implications. The chassis is just round tubing. NOT an impossible mission to duplicate.

    The main fact I have uncovered is this: The original P3/4 chassis diagrams seem to be a closely guarded secret that others simply do not want to release.
     
  24. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
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    #46 PAUL500, Jan 31, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
    As you have already worked out, the number of people who have access to such drawings is very limited, no doubt someone on here could put their hands on them though.

    Given that they are rare drawings of a rare and valuable car then the chances of them posting them up for all to see is clearly not going to happen.

    Time to get your scale rule out, a magnifying glass and a note pad and go to work using all the photos in the 0846 and 0858 threads.

    Once done will you then be posting up all that hard work for everyone else to see?

    There is a guy on pistonheads doing exactly the same with the Mclaren F1. Drawings are scarce, the real cars cost a fortune so he is building a virtual toolroom copy on CAD.

    Good luck with the task.
     
  25. technom3

    technom3 F1 Veteran
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    gee... I wonder why... LOL
     
  26. jarifinn

    jarifinn Rookie

    Jan 25, 2009
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    They are not near correct,,,,,,,,,If you search,,,,you will find a real deals here as well.
     
  27. jarifinn

    jarifinn Rookie

    Jan 25, 2009
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    Yes, they all had rack and pinion steering.Chassis main tubes were used as fluid transfare for lube oil and engine cooling. Two on right side and two on left.Frame tubing sections on right side is far different from left side. Those cars were build for race tracks and made to balance to right turns mostly. So non of them were made for left hand drive.
     
  28. JJNino

    JJNino Rookie

    Dec 11, 2011
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    JOHN NINO
    Now in my 10th year of building my 412P dream, I commend you on your vision! I couldn't have gotten this far without the help of David Piper and a handful of the most talented fabricators in the world. If you focus on what you'd like to do with your P4 creation when it's completed, the chassis configuration will become clear. My dream is to safely go around a race course so the engine adds extra strength to the chassis but isn't required for rigidity as in the original P Cars.
    Research and perseverance will pay off. Best of Luck! Nino
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