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Paint swirl question

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by TK 328, Oct 11, 2007.

  1. TK 328

    TK 328 Karting

    Dec 24, 2006
    167
    Perth West Australia
    Full Name:
    Tony
    I have read heaps of threads and am still confused......89 328 Red so no finish coat. Great paint condition no scratches but some minor swirl marks. Do I use a say Maguires polish or swirl remover and then wax or as a guy at a paint shop said just wax and that will get rid of swirl marks, I don't own any electric polisher tools nor do I want to damage paint work, So much conflicting info, just hoping for an easy way of making her shine without damage or wearing down the paint surface???? Tony
     
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  3. Iain

    Iain F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2005
    3,233
    UK
    Anything you put on top is only ever going to be a temporary fix. You might be able to improve the situation by hand with off the shelf products, or, more likely, if you really want to fix the issue then a professional detailer & a paint correction using rotary mops is the answer. Preferably one who also owns a paint depth gauge & who can check the thickness of the paint before he starts. Not wise to atempt yourself unless you know what you are doing.

    I.
     
  4. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2003
    36,855
    Babcock Ranch, FL
    Full Name:
    Dave
    You can get a lot of them yourself using a good random orbital from Porter-Cable. Griots sells one, so do most of the other good detail supply houses. I happen to prefer autogeeks.net, they also have some good swirl removal polishes.

    You're not gonna get them all with a random, but you can got probably 80%.

    Start with an agressive polish, then a finer one, add glaze, then carnuba or a synthetic on top.

    There's a real good site for detailing tips... www.autopia.org I think. Lots of good info there too.

    DM
     
  5. TK 328

    TK 328 Karting

    Dec 24, 2006
    167
    Perth West Australia
    Full Name:
    Tony
    Thanks guys, as she looks great with just a wash I may get a professional paint shop to do the work and maybe put a type of clear coat on after??? It seems so minor but we all know how fussy us Ferrari owners get, I just don't want to do any damage by being silly and using the wrong approach myself. Never new about the paint thickness thing! Thanks guys!
     
  6. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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  8. ferrari 360 spider f1

    ferrari 360 spider f1 Formula Junior

    Jan 9, 2007
    433
    bern switzerland
    Full Name:
    steven
    i use swissol cleaner fluid normal,most swirls whent away ,but the problem i had is that in the garage i dont have neon lights so i can see so easyly where the swirls are locaded so i noticed that the next time i need to spend more time in that specially sensitive area the trunk area in the 36o and the engine area.
    where it made a very great job was in the uper part of the doors the area where you open the door it was full of swirls and now it looks great.

    i recomend you to search a little bit in that web site http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/ it haves guides about scrach and swirrls removal,how to use the pc...
    i learned a lot about detailing my ferrari in that webs and forums.

    here is an other link http://www.detailuniversity.com/forums/
     
  9. TK 328

    TK 328 Karting

    Dec 24, 2006
    167
    Perth West Australia
    Full Name:
    Tony
    Thanks, you guys are great and have stopped me doing something stupid like use a harsh cutting compound on 18 year old Ferrari paint work!!! the more info the better, thanks again guys! Tony
     
  10. John_308qv

    John_308qv Karting

    Apr 9, 2001
    189
    Milwaukee, WI
    +1 on the Porter-Cable buffer. Struggled with light swirl marks for years until I broke down and bought the orbital polisher. Hand buffing with a swirl remover just did not do a good enough job for me. I used a Zano mild swirl remover but there are other products that would work just as well. Good luck. John
     
  11. Jeff328

    Jeff328 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 5, 2006
    2,276
    WI
    +2 on the Porter-Cable unit. It is impossible to remove all the swirl marks by hand, and many times it just makes it worse. With the P-C buffer, a non-cutting or very mild cutting foam pad, and very mild compound (I like Griot's polishes, the finest one is my favorite), it is virtually impossible to damage the paint and you can get some amazing results with a little practice and patience.

    A good idea is to start out on your daily driver car to get some practice then you will feel confident to tackle the Ferrari.
     
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  13. TK 328

    TK 328 Karting

    Dec 24, 2006
    167
    Perth West Australia
    Full Name:
    Tony
    Cool info!!! Tony
     
  14. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Dec 9, 2003
    13,129
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    A makita rotary polisher, wool pad, and machine polish do wonders :).

    Last week I broke down and bought what they recommended on autobody101.com...cool board. $200 for the makita, 15$ for the polish...works fantastic!!! Took out some big scratches from the BMW...buffed some parts I had painted on other cars...look like glass...

    I tried the orbital polishers, but it really takes forever...and then some. The orbital is way WAY faster, and not as dangerous to the paint as people like to imply, unless you really lean into it. If you apply gently pressure it really is rather delicate and manageable... The pads on the makita are very high quality, concave, with tons of padding. They work beautifully.

    Its my new favorite tool of the month...

    http://www.autogeek.net/ma927po.html
     
  15. JSL

    JSL Formula 3

    Jan 5, 2002
    2,212
    California
    Full Name:
    J.S. Leonard
    I have the Griot's machine. It is a knock-off of the PC. It does a great job. Actually it is pretty hard to mess it up.
     
  16. veryfast355

    veryfast355 Karting

    Sep 24, 2007
    120
    gt neck long island
    Full Name:
    michael c
    i was recently introduced to Klasse, a product from Germany - it gives a great finish although i did not use an orbital polisher - anyone tried it?
     
  17. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    564
    Middletown, NJ
    I have the same polisher. I have only used it on paint I applied myself. I am pretty spooked at the idea of going after any paint I didn't lay down myself without a thickness gauge.

    It's really hard to UNbuff. :)
     
  18. chris marsh

    chris marsh F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 30, 2005
    4,635
    Detroit
    Full Name:
    Chris Marsh
    I took my car to a bump shop and for $200.00 they buffed out all of the swirl marks. Unfortunaly that was a year and 20 washes ago and they are coming back.
     
  19. Todd Helme

    Todd Helme Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2007
    924
    Oviedo Florida
    Full Name:
    Todd Helme
    #16 Todd Helme, Oct 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    A wool pad with "remove" the swirls, but leave buffer trails in the finish. You need to finish with a fine foam pad, light polish, and skill to get a rotary right. I would not recommend this method unless somebody has experience with it, as rotary polishing requires a lot finesse, experience, and skill to get right.

    Here are some pictures of the roof of a Ferrari 400i that I polished to give you an idea.

    Picture one: The paint is battered/the top of the picture (driver side of the roof) has been polished, as you can see by the "line"
    Picture two: The paint has been "corrected" with a wool pad, however, you can see the buffer trails (also called holograms) and minor marring left behind.
    Picture three: A finer cut wool pad and a finer polish burnish the paint further, however minor buffer trails and marring remain (this is the highest finish a wool pad can bring the paint up to
    Picture four: A fine cut foam pad and burnishing polish bring the whole thing together, making for perfection :D
    Picture five: A side by side of an unpolished section vs. a polished section
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  20. Todd Helme

    Todd Helme Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2007
    924
    Oviedo Florida
    Full Name:
    Todd Helme
    The question is how to you remove swirls?

    The only way to remove swirls is to relevel the paint, so that the low spots of the swirls become level with the paint. This is done by removing a microscopic amount of paint, so that surface becomes flat. So you really aren't removing the swirls, but removing all the paint around the swirls until eveything is level.

    A glaze acts to "fill" the imperfections, like flooding a valley (low spot of the swirl) between two mountains. Of course this is only temporary, but provides nice results. Most body shops that "detail" cars use heavy glazing oils or silicones when the buff (because they don't know how to buff properly), which means the car looks amazing, but several weeks later, the oils leach out, and you are often left with a surface worse then when you began, because they buff on the glaze with a wool pad, which adds more swirls into the paint.

    A portercable is pretty non aggressive and usually "rounds" the edges of the micro scratches that form swirls, so the result looks great but comes back over time as the edges sharpen.

    To properly remove them means to "shave" a fine level of paint from the car, and I would recommend finding somebody who is very skilled in this area. Depending on where you live, autopia.org is a great resource for amazingly talented detailers.
     
  21. Todd Helme

    Todd Helme Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2007
    924
    Oviedo Florida
    Full Name:
    Todd Helme
    For 200.00 they used the glaze method I mentioned above. Proper polishing is, unfortunatly, a very rare science. Most body shops have been doing it a certain way for so long and have no interest in learning proper techniques. Just because a company has 20 years experience doesn't mean that they 20 years experiece doing it the right way, but more often 6 months experience x 40.... If the paint was releveled (vs. filled) and proper washing techniques are used to maintain the vehicle, then results should last for many years...

    To properly relevel paint can take as much as 10 hours (if not more) and most of the guys who are capable of this work are going to charge a min. of 50 per hour....
     
  22. Todd Helme

    Todd Helme Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2007
    924
    Oviedo Florida
    Full Name:
    Todd Helme
    I have a lot of experience with Klasse, both the AIO and the KSG. The AIO "fills" with scratches/swirls with an acrylic glaze (though it does have mild abrasive properties that will remove very fine marring with a highspeed buffer). The SG is pretty nice as well. Unfortunatly, Klasse had to change the forumlation in the early 2000's to conform to VOC regulations, and the product did loose some of its pop. Jeff Werkerstatt makes a similar product line that works as well as pre-VOC Klasse, IMO.

    You might also want to investigate the Zaino line, as they make an AIO product that is MUCH better then Klasse, as well as a sealant line (Z5pro/Z2pro) that far exceed Klasse.

    PS Sorry for all the grammar and spelling errors in my posts, my three year old has kept me up and I'm now functioning on very little sleep. I will edit when I wake up to make myself understandable.
     
  23. veryfast355

    veryfast355 Karting

    Sep 24, 2007
    120
    gt neck long island
    Full Name:
    michael c
    where do you '' rate '' SWAX '' ? it seems as though Zaino , Klasse and SWAX are in a league of their own?
     
  24. ZINGARA 250GTL

    ZINGARA 250GTL F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Jun 21, 2002
    17,448
    PA
    Full Name:
    Ken
    If you have a nice finish to begin with. Do not use a buffer. Use microfiber cloth and random back and forth strokes by hand.
     
  25. Todd Helme

    Todd Helme Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2007
    924
    Oviedo Florida
    Full Name:
    Todd Helme
    Certain products are definitely better for "me" then other products. The problem with questions like this, honestly, is there is no right answer. I tend to use what I feel are the best products that work for me are, or what I can market professionally.

    Zaino is a very established name amongst enthusiasts and DIY type people. Zaino has two main benefits, one it lasts a very long time on daily drivers (and basically forever on cars that sit in a garage) and it is completely layer able. Each coat applied will increase the gloss/reflectivity to a small margin over the previous coat and increase the protection. This means, while Zaino lasts for a long time on its own, it is not redundant, but beneficial to re apply more coverage every several of months. It has a very glossy and shiny look with decent gloss.

    Klasse, like I Liquid Glass, used to be the industry standard. Because of increasing VOC regulations and restrictions, the reformulated versions have lost a lot of the original appeal, and IMO, better alternatives exist. In terms of durability, Klasse is good; though I have never been impressed by what I feel is a very plastic appearance (devoid of depth). This is because of the acrylics in the product. Liquid Glass is better appearing, though very heavy in silicone (which I am not a big fan of layering on top of paint).

    On the other side of the spectrum, you have carnauba waxes such as Meguiars #26 (very great bang for the buck) all the way up to Zymol (which can run up to 8000 dollars per jar). Carnauba wax is not very reflective (gummy bears are incased in pure carnauba wax) by itself and is rather cheap (5 dollars for 10 pounds, imported from Brazil). However it is the oils and solvents added to the mix that gives carnauba that amazing depth and warmth. On darker colors, this depth and warmth can create a beautiful appearance (that exceeds synthetics like Zaino, Klasse, ect...) depending on your preference. The problem with carnauba is that it melts at a low temp (I believe around 130 degrees) so if your car sees regular use, it will not last a long time in the environment.

    SWAX is very unique in that it does produce the deep reflections common to a high quality carnauba wax, while remaining a lot of the sharpness and reflections of a sealant. I have not been able to test the durability extensively, but in my short testing, it easily outlasts most common carnauba waxes. On my wife's car, I had it on one half of the hood vs. my 1800 dollar jar of Zymol Vintage on the other half. I (as well as people I asked) could not tell the difference between the do. Both looked amazing. However, several weeks later (car is parked outside 24-7) the Zymol had faded noticeably while the SWAX continued to look great. So for the look (and price) SWAX is a very interesting option. Also, since carnauba wax is concrete hard in natural form and uses solvents to soften it, there is a debate as to whether it can be layered or not. The generally accepted idea is that the solvents in the new layer of carnauba will interact with the previously applied layer and re-liquefy most of it. This means when the solvents and carriers haze, most of the previous layer would come off.

    Being that I detail a lot of high end cars, many companies send me products to try out. 95 percent of the products I receive, I throw in the garbage. SWAX is one of few that I did not. That said it’s important to remember that 95 percent of the final appearance of paint comes from the prep work (before any wax or sealant is applied). Does the paint have heavy swirling, is it oxidized, is it level, ect... That is where a high end detailer can come in and fix the problem correctly. If any wax or sealant claims to be the magic fix (watch late night TV, for example) then it is simply using oils or silicones in the wax/sealant itself to create this temporary band aid. However, once paint is polished flat and level and swirls removed (so light reflects vs. refracts) the appearance is going to be amazing by itself. Because it is resin based, SWAX also appears to increase its appearance with each layer.

    At this point, sealant or wax (LSP-Last Step Product) selection becomes a matter of personal preference. In this case, my theory (as a professional) is simple. Lets get the paint perfect, or as close to perfect as possible, then seal it in with a high quality sealant that can be increased with additional layers (and thus investing into the paint).
     
  26. Valence

    Valence Formula Junior

    Jan 20, 2004
    875
    Charlottesville, VA
    Full Name:
    Chris& Brian Coffing
    I personally hate orbitals - think they are non-effective for serious work and I think they can trap particles more easily than rotaries leaving little curly-cue marks. I really like 3M textured foam pads and one of their fine compounds on a variable-speed rotary tool for this type of work.

    I'll concede that rotaries are slightly more difficult to use, but they are the real deal.
     
  27. NB355GTB

    NB355GTB Rookie

    Aug 2, 2007
    17
    Fleetwood, PA
    Todd, thanks for the detailed information.

    My inclination is to let someone who does this professionally do the work. Do you or anyone else know of a good detail shop in the Philadelphia or Reading area?
     
  28. 38 Off

    38 Off Karting

    Nov 4, 2003
    247
    Pace, FL
    Full Name:
    Phil Crain
    Haven't read anything on this thread so far that specifically addresses how to get the minor spider webbing out that you see in very bright sun, in my case on a black car. Have used a Griot's RO buffer from course to fine (their #4), but can still see some spider webbing. I don't want to fill it, I want to smooth it. Any suggestions?
     

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