This is what is so stunning about "The Bern" phenom here in the US. "Most" would agree that the French 'democratic socialist' model is hated, feared & reviled. Jack
Sorry to bother those who may think this is not a legal forum,,,except for #384😁...but you cannot "say" and declare you are now domiciled somewhere else...you have specific rules of residency in different countries and it would have been impossible for the Bardinon family to be resident outside France and keep their real estate and company there and continue to live there...in addition since a few years, you have now an "exit tax" in France, like in the US , where you have to pay the tax you would have had to pay if you were resident if the triggering event of the tax ( in this case death) happens during a certain period of time after they change residency. Anyway better to see it a more optimistic way, Pierre Bardinon was a real car lover , had the money and was clever enough to build one of the best collection of race Ferraris in the world. And like those who are old enough only remember the Obrist collection by name,,,and the Setton collection may be with the help of the book " une collection d'avance" those are gone and history. It might be sad, but it is also an opportunity to see new collections and new presentation emerge in different parts of the world, with different themes and different set up. So long the cars are not destroyed ( unlike some other art artifact) it is not so sad. Does anyone want to post pictures or start a thread on collections and in particular past collections?
Well, as the Schlumpf did not have children anyway, any inheritance claim would have had to pay a incredibly high inheritance tax ( compared to the extremely high level of direct inheritance tax between parents and children above a relatively low threshold ..) so in a way, by taking over the museum and collection, the French government somehow preempted something anyway that would have happened de facto later. And avoided the collection to be sold and remain together, and both state and local authorities are funding the cost of the museum😀. The only real losers in this case, of course apart from the direct family who could not dispose of the assets and claimed they were personal assets ( i.e. Did not belong to their companies,,but the legal system in France 40 years ago could allow the judge to extend the bankruptcy to personal assets beyond company assets) were the creditors of the bankrupt Schlumpf business. So winner was the government and the general public, losers were the family and the creditor banks , which somehow are not very different from the general public,,as most French banks anyway at that time were state owned...😁
Andrew the air gets pretty thin at those valuations. How much enthusiastic bidders can there be at over $30MM no matter the car.
I think Jack Setton and Albert Obrist were ultimate enthusiasts who were able to assemble incredible, world class collections for a time. In the front, I believe, stands Pierre Bardinon; undoubtedly the most successful custodian, clearly he developed the greatest showcase of Ferrari's incredible post-war competition legacy of success. All things must pass. In the time he had, what he did to celebrate the marque was immense.
Very powerful and accurate comment. Words "At least" is noted How long will it take for the word to get out, til the owners realize what their 250/275/330/365 production cars are really worth.
A few meagre auctions do not constitute a trend, may I ask what you are basing this on? The stock markets are faltering a bit which will cause collectors to become more cautious, yet I see other asset markets rise. Behold the league of supercars, the general classic car market is not that extended and actually inline with base money in the economy.
Artcurial just published their overall results, quick look seem to indicate an almost 80% sale rate by numbers. Of course volumes are also served by the 335S even if the SWB did not sell, and the fact that one big Citroen collection was selling the second day at no reserve. Still even if market is correcting 20%, after a growth of 5X in last 10 years, this is still 4X and even with a 50 % correction this is still a healthy growth this decade. The only real losers are the late comers, as usual, and those who are still waiting to buy a car to enjoy, and one day will have to decide if they want or not to take a decision not motivated by pricing but by a passion and enjoyment!
The 80's cars are having significant gains at the moment, we now see Enzo's trading a world record numbers ( sub 2500 miles ) and a world record for a F50 last week, Grade A F40 are the highest they ever been and the GTO's are above these, anything in the 90's you cannot buy. maybe a slight correction in the 60's cars, but I would say these are average cars not Grade A.. We saw a Daytona and 308 make world record numbers a couple of weeks ago as well.
The very high end Ferraris are stabilising and might decrease a bit (the 500+). But in other price ranges and other brand I am not sure it is or will be the same story. In the Artcurial sale as messy as it was, looking at the Citroen sold, the Mangusta, some Maseratis, or the Lambo 350 GT, this was pretty strong imho. It's another price bracket, but these are cars that didn't have the growth of super high end cars, and if a nice example turns around I think it will still get a very good price. For Ferraris, I am not sure that adjustment happening to a Daytona for example will affect a cheaper BB or 330 GT. my 2 Cents.
Are F40s really at the highest ever? I don't follow them as closely but I saw that a 4000km F40 sold at the RM auction for a bit over 1mm euro including fees. That sounds cheap to me. Is there a story to this car?
The F40 sold in Paris was swiss registered making it harder to sell because of extra tax. Vendor must have had some pressure to close the deal...
Exactly. It's hard to argue there is some kind of industry-wide correction when we are seeing record model prices at nearly every major auction and the average quality of offerings is tanking as the number of auctions increases.
The Daytona in Paris,and just recently in Florida looked strong,sold well. I am surprised that both of the 512BB in Paris failed to find a buyer. Some six months ago ,they were really beginning to take off. Still reckon they have room to move up the marketplace.
375+ if you knew the cars you would understand why they did not sell, the market is not interested in high mileage, multiple owner, in un original condition cars, unless they are cheap. We have already discussed the spread between average and grade A is around 50%. The only 80's cars that were grade A sold, the enzo's and F50 both for world record results.
Ahhh, come on. I thought politics were totally banned on this forum. And all I said was that IMHO no-one should be allowed to deliberately destroy any essential and valuable piece of history. I do not have the slightest hate or fear for it and that last word I do not understand. Different countries have different legislation and a different society. I for one would not ever wish to live in a system or country that most of you do. But I am not saying you need to change, all I am saying is that the French are French and we are what we are and I think we have a pretty good society to live in. Even if we have too few Ferraris for my liking. Yes, that '57 was (and is) one of the most beautiful and important racing Ferraris ever. But $32M is also a lot of money for me, about 300 x more than I will ever spend on any car. But I hope we will still be able to admire it at an event or a museum if nothing more. Cheerio, Pekka T. Fin.
Are you referring to the black Enzo sold by RM in Paris? The car had been destroyed and totally rebuilt and heavily customised.
ERA the car in Arizona, it sold for 2.86 million USD, apart from the popes car last year this was a record price at auction ...... a car in the UK has sold for 2.5 million GBP recently, this had 300 miles.
Era the F40 sold there as well for around 1.55 USD so again strong money, maybe even a record for a 4000K car.. F50 was world record, 308 world record, very low mileage Daytona strong money, the list and theme goes on, money is going in to the 80's cars...
