Passenger seat button | FerrariChat

Passenger seat button

Discussion in '348/355' started by Buzzl, Apr 10, 2018.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Buzzl

    Buzzl Formula Junior

    My passenger seat button stays constantly illuminated and seat will adjust when car is sitting and nothing on. Driver seat has opposite scenario. Should driver seat also adjust when car is sitting and nothing on?
     
  2. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Do you mean no ignition on? I get no lights, no movement, both seats ('98 5.2 F355 spider)
     
  3. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

    Mar 17, 2006
    4,676
    Seattle, WA
    Full Name:
    Brian White
    Ooooo, fancy. Power seats. Must be nice to have a GT. ;)
     
  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Does your soft top work without the ignition on?
     
  5. Buzzl

    Buzzl Formula Junior

    Yes, nothing on. I converted soft top to manual


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  6. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    I looked at the wiring diagrams and it's difficult to see how your car could possibly do this. The two seat switches have common power source. If one switch is powered, so must the other one be. Also, it seems that all signals from the seat switches to the seat motors go via the roof controller. This should not be powered with the ignition off*.

    Unfortunately, the workshop manual diagrams don't go into enough detail. I don't have any diagrams showing exactly where the seat switch and roof power comes from (e.g. if relay "P" in the passenger footwell is involved. This relay is energised with the ignition key in the on/run position and provides power to a number of different systems).

    *Interestingly, the Owners Manual says that, for roof opening, that the roof controller needs to see that the ignition key is ON for roof operation to begin. The wording is such that it doesn't explicitly say that the computer itself is unpowered with the ignition off.

    Have you tried interchanging the plugs on the switches to see if the behaviour swaps from one seat to another? There might be more than one electrical fault in your seat/roof system.

    Spider Roof Wiring Diagram
     
  7. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    It is absolutely normal for the window switches to work with the car off, key out of the ignition, and the doors open. This function goes through the power top ECU in the middle console. Therefore there is power to the top controller even if the car is off.
     
  8. Buzzl

    Buzzl Formula Junior

    What about the seat switches, should they be working with everything off?
     
  9. Buzzl

    Buzzl Formula Junior

    Thanks Qavion, Ill try that. Fuel door is no opening and parking light switch is not working either. I replaced the solenoid for the fuel door. Need to see if power is at both switches. I wonder if this is some how all related, Ive checked fuses and relays. They are all good. Thanks for your help.
     
  10. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    #10 Qavion, Apr 11, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
    Are you sure there isn't a dual signal path, Mitch? We know that the spider has a different window controller than the other cars with an additional plug which goes to the roof controller, but isn't it possible that the window manual switches can operate the windows simply by communicating via the Window ECU. The roof controller does get signals from the window switches, but this may simply be to resolve conflicting inputs from the switches and the roof controller's control of the windows.

    Window Control Wiring Diagram
     
  11. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    P.S. Mitch, if you look at the roof control diagram, it shows that the window switches only have one electrical contact (each) which inputs to the roof controller. The roof controller doesn't know if the windows are being commanded up or down, just that they are being operated.
     
  12. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Good idea. That was going to be my next suggestion.

    If you have power on both switches and the defect does not transfer when you swap the switch plugs over, then we have to start looking elsewhere.

    The manual does say (generally) that the ignition must be on for window operation. However, according to the wiring diagrams, the window controller does have battery power on it at all times. This allows for window operation for a certain time period after the ignition has been turned off (with the door open).
     
  13. Buzzl

    Buzzl Formula Junior

    Can I swap switches to check for switch malfunction? ie: overhead light button for fuel door button.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  14. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    #14 Qavion, Apr 11, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
    Probably not these specific buttons. The fuel door will be a momentary type (spring loaded to the off position). The overhead light may be a locking type and stay active. You may damage something if you swap these switches.

    Sorry, I wasn't sure if you were referring to the fuel door/parking light problems or the seat switch problem or both.

    The previous owner of my car managed to get the plugs of the switches forward of the gear stick swapped over, causing all kinds of problems. It took me a while to figure out what was going on. I suppose it might be a possibility in your case. You would have to check the wire colours. By the way, you know the ignition has to be on for the fuel door, don't you?
     
  15. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    For info: The fuel door switch harness should have the following wire colours:

    white/blue
    black x 2
    yellow/red

    The parking light switch harness wires should have these colours:

    red/black
    violet
    black
    yellow/red

    Sometimes those circular switches can jam in the down (active) position, but it's sometimes hard to tell if they are down. You can sometimes free the switches by adjusting the tension of the screws which hold the switch backing frame in place.
     
  16. Buzzl

    Buzzl Formula Junior

    yes, thanks
     
  17. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    In a spider, the top controller interferes with the window operations in 2 ways:

    1. It drops the windows a bit when you activate the spider top
    2. It inhibits the windows from operating up or down until the top is fully retracted, or fully in place.

    Because of the logic above, the Top ECU must have a much more integrated function with the window controller than a mere "conflict resolution" role. The top ECU also has total control over the electric seats so all points to the spider top ECU has power with the key in the off position. Which gives the possibility of the seat being powered in a faulty condition.
     
  18. Buzzl

    Buzzl Formula Junior

    I am getting power up to the fuel door button. Do you think the switch is probably bad? I replaced the solenoid with a new one so it should be ok.
     
  19. Buzzl

    Buzzl Formula Junior

    In looking at the plug I would assume the small female receptors are power to illuminate the button and the larger receptors are to control the solenoid that opens the door. Is this correct? So if Im getting power up to that point would it be a defective button?
     
  20. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
    Sorry Mitch, I should have clarified. I meant the signal from the manual window switches to the roof ECU were meant for conflict resolution. My take on this is that the roof controller (apart from sending signals to the window controller for co-ordination of windows during roof operation) also sends a signal to the window controller to either inhibit manual window operation (during roof operation) or to ensure that the manual input does not put the windows in the wrong position for roof operation. i.e. the roof controller may allow you to manually operate the window switches in the down position during roof operation. Anyway, as mentioned before, there are not enough wires going from the window switches to the controller for manual control of the windows via the roof controller.

    But the seats don't work with the ignition off (or they don't on my '98 car).

    I have no problem with the roof controller being powered at all times (it might explain Buzzl's fault), I just don't see why it needs to be (at least on my car).

    Assuming the plugs are on the right switches and the fuse, fuel flap relay and new solenoid are ok, this just leaves the button and the wiring. By the way, did you interchange the relay with a known good relay or just buy a new one?

    The earth (ground) for the fuel flap solenoid is a major earth located above the left hand radiator outboard upper support bolt (can be difficult to find). This earth does affect a lot of other systems, but if you are out of options, I would check the tightness of the earth bolt (and perhaps clean the wiring lugs).

    Hope this helps
    Cheers
    Ian
     
  21. Buzzl

    Buzzl Formula Junior

    I did swap matching relays. Ill look into the grounding. Thanks Ian.
     
  22. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 20, 2015
    11,484
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Ian Riddell
  23. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    I am going to check this with my cars. But, I believe there is only one "controller" that looks after the windows in the Berlinetta (B versions have manual seats) installed in the dash area.. That same controller looks after the windows, the seats, and the spider top in the Spider version, installed in the center console behind the driver.

    I have disassembled the Spider dash and there is nothing behind the radio.

    Since you both have power seats, it means you have Spiders and there is power in the controller even when the ignition is off. The seats are not supposed to work with the ignition off, so if it does, there is a short somewhere in the board.
     
  24. Buzzl

    Buzzl Formula Junior

    Thanks Yelcab, where would you start looking? Engine bay maybe?
     
  25. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Nov 23, 2012
    16,047
    Orchard Park, NY
    Full Name:
    Dave Lelonek
    I didn't read all the posts....

    I believe a window switch has the same functionality as the seat switches.
     

Share This Page