Patina: what to preserve, what to re-do?

patina for me.

 

For me at least, I enjoy driving my cars which means keep it as it is, if possible. Attentions would be paid, but not to restore to the teeth ad naseum. No interest in shows therefore not obligated to follow what's proper and correct. Over restoring for me takes away that something special from the car. Fix and restore w/ prudence when needs arise. That's how I am. Jimmy

 

Original once, restored many times.

 

This can be kind of a complex question when you are talking about mechanical items that are functionally compromised due to rust or wear.

A sympathetic restorer or mechanic will have a go slow approach and take the process in stages. I recommend staying with cleaning items as long as possible and to try to avoid refinishing or re-plating. Once you've gone past that point it's pretty hard, maybe even impossible, to go back.

In your example of the brakes, I would have recommended trying to get rid of all the rust in as delicate a way possible but not re-plating the whole caliper once you were done.

Regarding replacing items (rubber items, hoses, wires, maybe a fuel filter) and putting the new item into a setting with patina, I have heard of this done, I think the example was a 250 SWB. Whatever it was, there was a new item put into the existing (patina'ed) engine bay. It looked a little weird but truly, this must be the most sympathetic way to handle things.

Even cleaning a car that has patina can be in question. But if you go easy with it and stick to say, sympathetic cleaning, you will at least have a good foundation from which you can decide what to do next.

Note, I do NOT do this for a living, this is Just My Opinion, For What It's Worth (JMO, FWIW).

-F

 

This is an interesting problem. I have always tried to preserve history. The one PF brought back from a 40 year sleep I'm particularily proud of. It still required 1000 hours of gentle cleaning.
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I'm doing this on a Lusso now (also non-professional) and it is a tough question that I struggle with on a part by part basis. What I've been doing is gently cleaning the a part and then evaluating it. If it looks reasonablely good, I keep it for originality. If after cleaning it looks like it's ratty and near end of life, then I restore it.

As an example- the first pic is my rear fuel prump and filter assembly prior to cleaning.


The second is the filter after cleaning which I felt looked very good and I didn't want to lose the patina. (screws were plated).


The third is the fuel pump redone- It just looked bad after cleaning ... it was less "patina" and more "crap" so I restored it and changed all the rubbber to make it ethanol compatible (mounting screws not plated at the time of this shot)
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How to get instant patina put new parts back into car .....................let it sit in Florida for 60 days ............instant patina.

 

Wow. You guys are cool. The 308 crowd seems to want everything so overdone, you guys are almost anti restoration.

I have had a thought bouncing around for a while, perhaps this is as good of place as any to discuss it. In all the pictures of original and/or unrestored Ferrari's since the very beginning, everything on these cars appears to be a dull or satin finish. Wheels, bodywork, chassis, engine castings, aircleaners, even the leather and upholstery is dulled. Nothing ever appears very shiny. The restorers on the other hand, seem to jump over each other trying to outshine each other, and the cars end up looking totally unrealistic.

Being the cars are all race bred, or actual racing cars, and given that glare is always a problem, I have wondered if the satin finish look isnt something they actually strived to achieve rather than a lack of ability as some try to suggest. A case in point is the F-40. There is not one part of that car thats shiny except the glass, yet Ferrari certainly had the ability to send it out as glossy as wet fingernail polish. Is it possible they intentionally dulled the paint and finish on their cars as a matter of style?

 

No question originally these cars, especially race cars were much less shiny than many restored cars now are.

 

It's funny you mention that...I just received my brake calipers back from plating and found them to be too shiney. I ended up lightly bead blasting them to a more satin finiah that I like a lot better.

 

Okay, another question. I have never been to a judged car show. Can an old car with old original paint, old leather, faded carpets etc., win at a show, or come up in high points as long as it is 100% correct? Or is the million dollar restoration always going to "outshine" the competition? Not that I really care, just curious.

 

First and foremost any car must be in perfect mechanical condition, over restored or original. Now there are some restored cars that are not in perfect mechanical condition ... hence the use of trailers .

Second anybody that calls themselves a mechanic and removes a part from a car and does not clean it properly before putting it back on would be sacked if they worked for a garage I owned (if I actually owned one). Cleaning does not mean you are removing patina, and is an important safety check process. Also shows lack of pride in their work.

My father owned a car repair business when I was young and even the day to day cars had parts cleaned on them when a repair was done. For example if you had to recondition a carb, you would obviously clean it inside and out, repair and reinstall back on the engine. The rest of the engine might not look as clean ... to bad, although in some cases we used to steam clean also.

The fact is some are getting way over excited about patina and a dirty old car is NOT patina, just neglect. No car was ever maintained like that when current so just do not understand this direction.

Now if your car had accident damage that was interesting ... yeah sure leave that alone, but not the dirt from the bank that the car hit ... that is just stupid.
Pete

 

Excellent question!

I've been to a few judged shows and also judged a couple myself. IMHO, the million dollar restoration has it's place and it's great to see a car that looks as brand new as it was ##years ago. An extreme amount of money and hard work went into the car to make it look that way. However, if I was judging a show and the car was a documented all original, then I'd tend to sway to the urestored all original. The car IS exactly as it was when it rolled out of the factory. That's what you're judging against, no?

 

Paul,

Pebble Beach has a survivor category where they present these old, unrestored 'tatty' cars. The effects of originality/patina at car shows often depends on the venue and judges.

Regards,

Art S.

PS. I am in favor of cosmetic originality combined with mechanical restoration.

 

I always appreciate a nicely restored car and admire the amount of work and thought it takes to bring one to completion, but my preference is patina over shine. I think the recent "survivor" classes are a great thing. I have a 365 GTC (12795) that is original (paint, interior, mechanicals) and I am only now having a driver's-side carpet section made to replace the ground-out section beneath the pedals (saving even the old remaining pieces), but have resisted even (for now) having the rear bumperettes rechromed, though they are beginning to rust on the inside. On the other hand, a few years ago I acquired an original Cobra with less than 800 miles on it, in wonderful cosmetic shape (original paint, interior, mechanicals, even tires), but over many years of just sitting (even inside, covered, in a heated space), moisture had accumulated in a low section of the main tube rails, creating some pin-sized holes. Since my intention was to eventually drive the car, not just store it, and had thus already decided to replace all hoses, gaskets, lines, etc., we completely disassembled the car over a two-year period, removed the engine and put it untouched on a stand and installed a period-correct replacement, of course saving and bagging every piece we replaced, and then reassembled the car. The reason I chose one course of action over the other was that the GTC had been regularly exercised as well as well-taken care of, though it had less than 10k km when I got it, and was in excellent, safe, mechanical shape. The Cobra, though looking showroom-new, had never really been on the road in decades. It was a great static-display, but completely unsafe to drive. For me, there's nothing as nice as sitting in the original old leather (or suede, actually, in the case of the GTC), looking over the original faded paint, and thumping down the road.

 

I and my friend Harland Hadley have been the competition car class judges at the Radnor Hunt Concours for many years and we like cars that have patina and are original. We made a very controversial decision a couple of years ago and awarded the best completion car award to an original Ford GT40 that was unrestored verses Dr. Simeones Fort GT40 that was just restored. We took a lot of flak from some of the show organizers about it but stood by our decision.

An unrestored car or one that gracefully and tastefully shows signs of age is more visually appealing and tells more of a story than what we call a “Hot Wheels” restoration.

I had to battle this issue myself with the restoration of a factory MZ250 ISDT bike that was in the 1968 ISDT. I got the bike sorted mechanically but left it as is bent handle bars and all. I won Award of Special Merit with the bike at this year’s Riding Into History Concour so I guess there were other judges that agree with this kind of patina restoration.

 

it seems that in recent years certain cars [ferraris included] have evolved in peoples minds to be what they never really were...my years of owning and restoring grand prix bugattis taught me that they left the factory rather rough and hand finished...castings were hand filed to shape and grained with a heavy wire brush...paint was applied with a brush over bare unprepped metal..engine turned surfaces were hand applied by eye and lacked all but the basics of symmetry...the internals however, were well machined and fitted to the best tolerances available at the time...somehow it became widely believed that the competition bugs were finished as "jewelery boxes" with polishing deep lacquered paint and perfect fit on each and every part...this ideal image became pervasive and soon it was fact...as one who has examined many original and near original gp cars i can assure you that is not the case. however on the perfectly manicured lawns of pebble beach and the like cars restored to "as delivered" are often addressed with outright hostility...while professional restoration shops must meet customer demands for a 100 point restorations on significant [and not so significant] cars a few individuals still pursue the ideals of originality to the best of their capability....[steps off soapbox]

 

Restoration companies are too busy demonstrating their abilities instead of restoring the car correct ... IMO.

Pete

 

great thread...great debate...definitely got me thinking....

I like to divide it into two camps with the more modern 'vintage' exotics....cars like a Countach or Mangusta for example really are a 'difficult' drive (cramped cabins, poor air circulation, poor visibility, tendency to overheat in traffic, fear of collision with soccer mom's as cars are RARE, etc.) These cars beg to be highly restored show cars in my opinion

cars like 930's, 308's, dino's (so pretty!), 911's, etc. are such great and easy driver's, here I wouldn't bother with a 100 point restoration, just preserve and maintain and DRIVE...

 

The leather in my 330GTC had been surface-dyed from red to black by the first owner. The black was wearing off in a way that looked like a pretty sever dermatological problem, so I replaced the leather. I had the shop carefully remove and preserve the original leather panels so that someday it could be restored to the original color and re-installed (if that's even possible), or at least be kept with the car.

Jack

 

A perfect example of a patina'd car is SN#0422MD -- the Ferrari 500 Mondial Berlinetta that appeared a few years ago. Two prior owner car in very original condition and pretty much unmolested its entire life. It was amazing seeing how things were done on this car and the finish treatments, engine compartment, interior, etc -- quite a few restorers archives are filled with pictures detailing the originality. Definitely worth keeping in original condition forever and only making sure items ala cooling systems, drum brakes system, etc were checked for road use today. Too bad it didn't generate as much enthusiasm in the Ferrari community when it appeared -- it really is a unique car in very original condition.

A modern restoration example is the Alfa 8C2900 coupe (sn#412035) that won at Pebble this year. Various restorations and minor modifications were made over the previous seven decades by prior owners. It was run in this form for many years by its current owner. But everytime you looked at it, it just screamed out that it wanted to be restored back into original condition. Thus the full blown (and correct detail) restoration on it and the accolades it received this year. Since PB it has been used on the street in the Northwest and recently did the Alfa Rally in Sante Fe -- it's a driver now and actually driven with gusto and enthusiasm -- not a show queen or museum piece. Ask the mechanics in the rental cars trying to follow it while going through the hills and roads of New Mexico a few weeks ago -- none could keep up with it. Definitely a unique car that fully deserved to be restored correctly. And it's good to see the owner using it appropriately irregardless of the restoration and awards themselves.

My personal opinion is that typically 30's era racecars should be in original (or similiar) patina. Imagine an Alfa P3, 8C35, ERA or early Bugatti racecar with a concours quality restoration on it -- its just not right. Early Ferrari racecars always look best with patina. (they were never "shiny" to begin with) Road cars though always look best "restored". I can't imagine something like 0402AM in "original patina" (it was horrible when found) or the Agnelli 375 coupe in original condition with flaking paint -- both are so much nicer currently befitting their original intent.

 

I think the real problem is that nobody has come up with an idea how to charge the customer for things that were left untouched, so it is better business to redo everything than leaving it be... I have an architect friend who says that lack of funds has saved many old houses. It has saved some cars from being restored to death too... Best wishes, Kare