Performance alternatives for 308

I have a carbed 77 308 with P6 cams and 9.7:1 Borgo ( U7709/3 ) pistons, although two pistons are burned and there in lies part of my question. Right now I can go in almost any direction. I drove the car to check it out and while many say the P6 makes the car powerless at low speed, I didnt really see this, and it idled smoothly at under 1000 RPM even with one cylinder virtually dead with zero compression and its partner not much better. Except for two, (possibly three if I want them perfect) all my other pistons are like new.

So, what to do, what to do. I could put it back together with the same pistons if I could locate any????. I could find Weisco's somewhere and redo the whole batch at the same compression or go higher or lower. My cams are factory P6 cams, have P6 stampings, correct part numbers stamped in, not welded and reground from another cam set.

My most cost effective alternative right now would be to find two or three "matching" Borgos and put the motor back together fresh. If it were possible to find these somewhere I would not hesitate to go this route. If anyone knows of any available somewhere, please don't hesitate to let me know. If not, I need a full set and I will probably go with Weiscos unless someone has a valid reason I shouldnt.

I suppose if I were to change out the cams and carbs I could go with a fuel injection setup and turbo the motor. Anyone have any ideas of cost for a fuel injection system?

Suggestions anyone???

Paul Colberg
77 308 GTB

 

Oh are they burned! The engine is currently out and tore down. Yes, it was using a large quantity of oil. Number 8 and number 7 ( which share a carburettor coincidently ) are both burned down past the top compression ring. Not through the center, just around the edges. Perhaps stuck rings that allowed the piston to burn. There are a dozen possibilities of what could have happened, incorrect timing, lean carb, stuck rings, etc, etc..

I bought the car in a non running condition, and after getting it running and checking it out, knew it had very low compression and a leak down test confirmed rings. Thought was stuck or sticking rings. Soaked them a couple weeks and tried driving the car to loosen them but, no banana.

All of that is water under the bridge now, motor is out and apart and let the rebuild begin. For what its worth, I will probably lean toward the new piston set over two or three replacement Borgo's, unless they are reasonably priced.

Paul~

 

I wasnt aware the axles or hubs were any different than a GTO, and I have heard from numerous people the trans was good for in excess of 500 HP with no real issues. But to be true, I hadnt planned to grenade the car with over 300 HP anyway. I feel that with the cams, the pistons, good fuel, good timing, properly adjusted and set up carbs, and some port matching, from all thats been discussed on these engines in the five years ive been reading, and just basic engine knowledge in general, I should be at or above 300 already.

If the engine were detuned with stock US carb or injected cams and lower compression ( 7:1? ) pistons, and turbo-intercooled, performance would most likely exceed that depending on boost. Someone on the Flist has a turbo'ed car, and I cant recall exactly but thought he was above 400 HP and had no issues.

But as I said, 300 should be well enough for these cars. I guess if I was after real power I could buy it a lot cheaper in another vehicle. I just wanna drive the damned thing on empty roads, lol.

Paul~

 

Actually, I dont know. I wish that before I did any work on the engine to get it running, I would have done more investigation, like, to see where the forward bank distributor was timed. All the forward bank spark plugs had blistered and broken insulators indicating detonation. After doing basically a 30K service, I found when I tried starting the car the carbs were rediculously out of sync to the point you could hear the difference by ear! The right front carb for cylinders 7 and 8, the two burned pistons, was making the most noise, so it was obviously making those cylinders work harder than the rest, so could have been lugged. Left front carb was next hardest working.

The engine is all apart and boxed as I calculate the direction I will go. I will certainly rebuild the carbs completely before, or if, I would use them again. When I removed the rings from the pistons I found every one to have some sticking in the top ring. Probably was sitting a while. But, the engine was very clean both externally as well as internally, and came apart well. I could probably have removed the heads by hand if I had pulled a little harder, but a little wedging up on one end and they broke right loose.

Its a US car, so I am pretty sure it didnt come over here with 9.7:1 compression and P6 camshafts. Someone had it apart at some point in the past I am sure, and either put these parts in it, or its a different engine. I havent had the car certified through Ferrari so I have no idea if this is the original block or not.

My thoughts the last few days on this have been leaning more and more towards electronic fuel injection and turbocharging with low compression pistons. I have a few months to make up my mind on this and decide what I want to do or can afford. I always wanted to hear those carbs, but the thought of higher power at lower rpm with better driveability sounds nice too. Then you can probably hear that musical gear box better?

 

Well... The way Enzo intended is obviously the correct choice in owning one of his cars. But who knows what he would alter if he had a choice? I will probably keep it as it is, keep the cams, get new pistons, go through the carbs etc.. It will at least look original. I highly doubt I will find any Borgo 9.7 pistons anywhere that match what I have now, so new set is in order. One other option would be to increase displacement. The turbo idea is for if you just dont care about it looking correct anymore

Ignition is another area I am thinking about. Right now I have the original twin distributors with Allison infrared light pickups and electronic ignition units, feeding standard ignition coils. It all looks stock and I like it that way, but shudder at the hundreds of dollars for distributor caps. If "as Enzo intended" fits in here, and I could never run an GM, Ford, or Chrysler cap on some aftermarket distributor, are there other options to this? Some other european cap that could be fit to these distributors? If we dont buy Ferrari parts they quit making them, but what they do have is so staggering in cost its no wonder people look at alternatives. Is there any 8 cylinder cap that will fit a 4 cylinder distributor?

On the turbo idea, we always forget about turbo lag. As much as high horsepower seems desireable, turbo lag really sucks. And no matter how hard they try to reduce its effects, its always there in some form. Having power come on to hard, to fast, having a car you have to hang onto for dear life in turns when it suddenly boosts on you, just really takes the fun out of it. Reading some articles about the 208 turbo seem to reinforce that issue. Funny that no matter how much you can read, no matter how much you know at any one time, you can forget it all momentarily in the quest for more power. And no matter how much power you have, someone will always have more.

 

I forgot to thank you, as well as everyone else, for your input and advice. These lists, the people who are in here and posting, are such a valuable resource, we forget after a while and take it for granted. I wouldnt be doing this at all if it wernt for so many others who took my fears away to own one of these cars. As much as I knew of mechanics, as much as I thought I knew, its refreshing to see so many people who just know things, pathfinders who lead our way through the darkness. Some would say "its not rocket science" to in some way reduce the intelligence needed to master this stuff. But in reality, rocket science was just a spin off from aircraft science, which is really in the end is just simple engineering and mechanical problem solving. It is rocket science, and thats what makes it all so damned much fun and keeps it interesting. Its been said, that a Ferrari F1 car, costs more per ounce than any other machine on the planet. I dont know that it does, but its got to be way up there, at something like $10000 per pound. If thats not rocket science I dont know what is. Again, thank you all for all your input