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Phenom 300 vs Citation cj4

Discussion in 'AviatorChat.com' started by scycle2020, Mar 29, 2014.

  1. scycle2020

    scycle2020 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2004
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    Any thoughts on which would be the better sign pilot light jet? Both seem to have high end modern technology, great avionics, around 2000nm range, top end of 450 knots and are single pilot certified.
     
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  3. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    #2 Jason Crandall, Mar 30, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
    Oh my favorite subject!!!

    I would go with the Phenom 300 vs. the new CJ3+

    Both Garmin 3000
    Same range
    Phenom 300 is a little faster.
    CJ's more common
    But Phenoms are making huge splash and being ordered by the hundreds by charter operators.

    If buying used the Phenom 300 is the one to get unless you want to do an older CJ3 with Proline 21. The problem with that is now that the CJ3+ is out I think you'll take a good hit on the Proline CJ3.

    Phenom styling is better and I think the cabin a touch larger. But you could trick out a CJ3+ also.

    Tough choice.

    CJ4 is larger than Phenom 300 and you're right back to Proline 21. Not sure if CJ4 will be discontinued or upgraded. They haven't built but 140 of them. It doesn't have the efficiency and numbers of the CJ3.

    What's your price range?
     
  4. GuyIncognito

    GuyIncognito Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    I know a small fraction about aviation relative to you, but it seems to me the CJ4 was too big- kinda sized itself out of the market...too big, too heavy, too expensive. maybe a bit like an E39 M5 vs a current M5 :) so I guess the CJ3+ is a way of correcting those mistakes?
     
  5. CavalloRosso

    CavalloRosso Formula 3

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    Phenom 300. What an awesome plane! From friends of mine that own Phenoms I hear that Embraer service is second-to-none and I wouldn't worry about the fact that Cessna has more Citation service centers. Embraer will make sure your dispatch reliability is as close to 100% as possible.
     
  6. sigar

    sigar F1 Rookie
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    CJ3 is a great airplane. Very capable and simple for a single pilot operator. I don't have any personal Phenom experience but I've heard service and support can be a challenge. Cessna Citation support is very good (probably the best of all jet aircraft in the U.S.).
     
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  8. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    The nice thing about Phenoms is they get an "annual" like most GA planes.

    Citations are on Phase Inspection. So they gotta replace and inspect on a calendar regardless of use.
     
  9. scycle2020

    scycle2020 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2004
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    Price range is the lower the better. What is the Proline 21??? Is this older avionics??? Are operating costs about the same between the citation and the phenom??? Ideally having range to go from DC to Colorado non-stop would be nice. It is 1400 nm but going out west into headwinds can require much greater range
     
  10. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    Both these planes go to 45K' so 'headwinds" shouldn't be a problem.

    These are my favorite planes because I'm a pilot and I love th new whiz bang avionics. If I wasn't a pilot I would probably buy an older Hawker and let someone else fly it. If you're paying someone else to fly there are many cheaper options with older jets and you'd be just as comfy in the back.

    How many hours per year will you be using this jet?
     
  11. dmark1

    dmark1 F1 World Champ
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    I would go with the CJ purely because of the support Cessna provides.
     
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  13. VS1

    VS1 Karting

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    ProLine 21 is a great package made by Rockwell Collins. As I am also trained in the TBM 850 I can tell you, in my opinion, the ProLine 21 is far superior to the G1000 in the jet environment. The G1000 is graphically much nicer, has synthetic vision, and is quite amazing in it's features, but operationally it is still a very fancy GPS. The ProLine 21 is build on a flight management system [FMS] based architecture and is truly designed to operate in the environment jets operate. The G3000 and G5000 are, from what I understand, FMS based systems designed for the turbine environment.

    Range going westbound in the high 30s to low 40s is a BIG consideration. Typical headwinds at these levels during the winter months are easily over 100 knots and often times much greater. I did DAY to VNYs last month in the Hawker. 5:02 hours outbound [FL370] and 3:25 hours on the return [FL400]. We routinely do DAY to ASE and back. The outbound flight is typically about 1 hour longer than the return.

    jason1st, you can still fly the Hawker. Candidly, the Hawker as a crew is less work than the Premier single pilot [or any "fill in the blank" single pilot jet], particularly when dealing with any failures/malfunctions, etc.

    I personally have not flown single pilot in over 10 years except for small aircraft and Premier check rides and have zero desire to operate single pilot.
     
  14. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    What about a Honda Jet ?
     
  15. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    lol
     
  16. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    If true, everyone wouldn't be switching to Garmin avionics. AND...... These planes have G3000, not G1000.

    My point is...... my plane purchase decisions are based on "single pilot" first and foremost. If I wasn't a pilot I'd be making other decisions.
     
  17. VS1

    VS1 Karting

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    The switch to Garmin avionics for jets has been very recent [with the release of the G3000/G5000]. Garmin makes outstanding products and they are pushing the industry forward. My point was from a mode of operations there is a reason the G3000/G5000 are true FMS systems vs the G1000. Point being, having operated behind both, I'd take a Proline 21 aircraft over the G1000 but, again, that's just me.

    Back to the OP's question. I, as one opinion, would not discount the CJ4 because it has the Proline 21 in it [or legacy CJ3s].

    If you are looking in the secondary market - those Phenoms will have a modified G1000 system whereas the CJ4 has the Proline 21. The Phenom 300 has a much more substantial ramp presence but you really can't go wrong with either. Having also been in the back of both, my opinion, is the CJ4 is a more luxurious.

    If you want to operate single pilot, check with insurance as their requirements to set you loose will likely make you double take. Our client that operates the TBM moved up from a Columbia 400. His requirement was 100 hours dual in the aircraft before he was cleared for single pilot ops [and that too at a liability limit I personally would not be comfortable with].
     
  18. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    My insurance single pilot for my PC12 is not that much money. I have $10MM smooth. It's certainly not enough to hire a second pilot.

    As for Proline, once again, if Proline were so great the industry wouldn't be switching away. It's neither here nor there in this case.

    Is the OP a pilot?
     
  19. VS1

    VS1 Karting

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    Insurance in a turboprop and a twin jet are completely different animals for owner pilot, single pilot operations. We don't need to air it out here, talk to your insurance agent, find out the realities of that market, then come back to us on it.

    On avionics, I, personally, wouldn't be so bold as to say the industry is switching. Embraer is using Proline in the new Legacy 450 and 500. Bombardier is using it in the Global 5000, the Learjet 85, pretty much all the Challengers and the next generation of regional jets. I believe even Pilatus elected to stick with Honeywell for the PC-24, so Garmin, while excellent, hasn't created the holy grail of flight decks.

    My advice to the OP. When you are spending big dollars on a modern business jet, reality is you are going to get a pretty sweet flight deck regardless of the manufacturer and I would not use the flight deck supplier as the deciding factor.
     
  20. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    #17 Jason Crandall, Apr 1, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
    Um, yeah. I've done that a lot. It's all about "hull value". PC12 costs more than most small jets. So what you're saying isn't at all accurate. Are you an "owner operator"?

    Does Proline even have Synthetic Vis? Avionics "sell airplanes". If you don't care about the market and losing a ton of money on your airplane purchase then by all means ignore the avionics part. "Sweet flight deck" is relative.

    Is the OP even here anymore?
     
  21. dmark1

    dmark1 F1 World Champ
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    Pro line just introduced synthetic vision. SV is the most overrated feature in all of avionics.
     
  22. VS1

    VS1 Karting

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    Owner operator of a Premier IA and Hawker 800XP. Both Proline 21 aircraft. Also operate as a 135 operator and aircraft management business, own my hangar and fuel farm but since you are clearly the aviation expert here, I'll drop out of this thread and the OP can PM me if they'd like to continue a helpful discussion.

    Any new aircraft will result in greater total dollar depreciation than any used aircraft regardless of flight deck, but again, what do I know.

    Dmark1 just made the most intelligent statement so far as it relates to synthetic vision. Wasn't that long ago we all flew behind steam gauges.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  23. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    We're coming at this from 2 different viewpoints. I'm not in the aviation business. Don't know why you're so defensive. God you guys are thin skinned.

    If I were in the charter business I'd have purchased the jets you purchased also. I don't think the OP is in the charter business.

    As for SVT, Doesn't matter if it's useless. I'm looking at things regarding the "market". The OP is asking for "purchase advice".
     
  24. VS1

    VS1 Karting

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    Not only in the charter business. It's an ancillary to our operating companies. Majority of the flight operations use is internal. But, I am an owner operator of both a single pilot and mid-sized business jet, so just sharing my actual experience. If you want to ignore it, that's fine. But it's out there for those others on here who want it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  25. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I like synthetic vision because it looks cool, but functionally it makes no difference at all. Although, in the Garmin avionics, the force vector cue is very handy... I don't recall if the PL21 has that, but it probably has something similar.

     
  26. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    With the switchover to Garmin...... The legacy aircraft are going to take a hit. The time to buy a legacy is a year from now and the time to buy a new Garmin machine is probably a year from now also.

    Jets that cannot be upgraded will decline in value rapidly.

    I'm just sharing my actual experience as an owner operator too. Not sure who's "ignoring" anything.
     
  27. dmark1

    dmark1 F1 World Champ
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    All Cjs can now be upgraded to G1000 for $350,000 at Citation Service Centers. Just saw one roll off the line in Mesa, looked great. I defiantly would NOT spend the money going from a Collins FMS based system like the Pro Line 21 though. No more capability and very little less workload.
     
  28. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    That's good. CJ's can be upgraded. My friend with a CJ2+ told me about the upgrade program the other day.

    Lot's of airframes out there right now with digital cockpits that cannot and will never be upgraded. You'd be better off with a 6 pack Sabreliner.

    As for "less capable".... For $350K, someone thinks "otherwise"..... right?
     

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